Youth Baseball Pitching

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AWvsCBsteeeerike3
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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by AWvsCBsteeeerike3 »

@mikechamp

What are your thoughts on teaching kids breaking pitches?

The coach we consult with is adamant that with proper mechanics/conditioning, they don't pose a risk and highly recommends teaching curveballs now since everyone is conditioned and we can monitor them throwing at the practices.

We're kind of leery because, well, 1. injuries and 2. time required to practice these pitches.

But, moving up to face older kids seems like a good idea. A lot of our pitchers that can throw strikes at 50 mph or so are going to get hit pretty hard. If it's safe and if they can do it, it seems like a good idea.

FWIW, I took what this coach told me on how to throw them and it works pretty well. Though, I'm not 9 years old.

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mikechamp
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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by mikechamp »

@AWvsCBsteeeerike3
Just to clarify: it sounds like you're going to play approximately 45 total games (10 already played, plus 35 more) during this spring/summer?

We're only looking at 28-30 games total this spring/summer. And we've got 11 of 12 players saying they want to pitch. In reality, 10 of those 12 will ever see the mound in a game. And we have a fairly obvious depth chart.

On the topic of breaking pitches, we started teaching our kids changeups this winter. (Remember, we're 2 years older than your team.) Personally, I feel very good about suggesting that as a starting point for you/your team. It's just a different grip. No twisting/turning involved. As I've stated, it's early in our season, but so far, we've seen good results out of the limited number of changeups thrown. Changeups can be very effective at the youth level. They worked for Eric Gagne's historic run, but also for Maddux and Glavine and numerous other pitchers at the MLB level. Why wouldn't they work in the youth game?

The other thing I prioritized this offseason is teaching my catchers how to call games. Personally, I don't like the idea of signs coming from the coach to the catcher and then to the pitcher. Too much possibility for misinterpretation. I'd rather my catchers have the knowledge to call a game themselves. While this might seem like a daunting task for kids, I had a handout I gave them to study, and we went over it at multiple practices. I also am keeping a book on all opposing hitters, so the battery can reference it in between innings. Finally, I told them I don't expect them to be perfect, and that if they make a wrong decision, that's ok. We'll learn from it. What I didn't say to them is that you might get away with a mistake every once in a while (at this level).

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Joe Shlabotnik
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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by Joe Shlabotnik »

If y'all let them throw curves, do me this favor. Don't [expletive] at the home plate umpire when he calls that rainbow a ball if it's out of the zone. One of my biggest pet peeves is coaches and parents who act like their kids deserve a called strike simply because they executed a curve. Believe me there is nothing I'd rather do than punch a kid out in a tight game with a well executed curve. But it still has to drop into the zone before I'll do it.

Thank you.

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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by mikechamp »

Joe Shlabotnik wrote:
April 11 22, 3:37 pm
If y'all let them throw curves, do me this favor. Don't [expletive] at the home plate umpire when he calls that rainbow a ball if it's out of the zone. One of my biggest pet peeves is coaches and parents who act like their kids deserve a called strike simply because they executed a curve. Believe me there is nothing I'd rather do than punch a kid out in a tight game with a well executed curve. But it still has to drop into the zone before I'll do it.

Thank you.
Hoping you can confirm for me that the location of the pitch at the front of the plate is where the decision is made as to whether it's a ball or a strike. Is that correct?

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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by Joe Shlabotnik »

mikechamp wrote:
April 11 22, 7:44 pm
Joe Shlabotnik wrote:
April 11 22, 3:37 pm
If y'all let them throw curves, do me this favor. Don't [expletive] at the home plate umpire when he calls that rainbow a ball if it's out of the zone. One of my biggest pet peeves is coaches and parents who act like their kids deserve a called strike simply because they executed a curve. Believe me there is nothing I'd rather do than punch a kid out in a tight game with a well executed curve. But it still has to drop into the zone before I'll do it.

Thank you.
Hoping you can confirm for me that the location of the pitch at the front of the plate is where the decision is made as to whether it's a ball or a strike. Is that correct?
Anywhere over the plate and between the knees and whatever-your-rulebook-says-the-top-is. Front of plate, back of plate, either side of the plate. That's why robo-ump strike calls can appear ridiculous, BTW. They are calling rulebook strikes a human would never call.

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mikechamp
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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by mikechamp »

Joe Shlabotnik wrote:
April 11 22, 8:14 pm
mikechamp wrote:
April 11 22, 7:44 pm
Joe Shlabotnik wrote:
April 11 22, 3:37 pm
If y'all let them throw curves, do me this favor. Don't [expletive] at the home plate umpire when he calls that rainbow a ball if it's out of the zone. One of my biggest pet peeves is coaches and parents who act like their kids deserve a called strike simply because they executed a curve. Believe me there is nothing I'd rather do than punch a kid out in a tight game with a well executed curve. But it still has to drop into the zone before I'll do it.

Thank you.
Hoping you can confirm for me that the location of the pitch at the front of the plate is where the decision is made as to whether it's a ball or a strike. Is that correct?
Anywhere over the plate and between the knees and whatever-your-rulebook-says-the-top-is. Front of plate, back of plate, either side of the plate. That's why robo-ump strike calls can appear ridiculous, BTW. They are calling rulebook strikes a human would never call.
My question is much more specific, though. At what juncture of the pitch's flight is the judgment supposed to be made? Meaning, if there was a vertical plane projected via visible lasers, and as soon as the ball met that plane, the call was made, where would that vertical plane exist?

AWvsCBsteeeerike3
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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by AWvsCBsteeeerike3 »

mikechamp wrote:
April 11 22, 2:51 pm
@AWvsCBsteeeerike3
Just to clarify: it sounds like you're going to play approximately 45 total games (10 already played, plus 35 more) during this spring/summer?

We're only looking at 28-30 games total this spring/summer. And we've got 11 of 12 players saying they want to pitch. In reality, 10 of those 12 will ever see the mound in a game. And we have a fairly obvious depth chart.

On the topic of breaking pitches, we started teaching our kids changeups this winter. (Remember, we're 2 years older than your team.) Personally, I feel very good about suggesting that as a starting point for you/your team. It's just a different grip. No twisting/turning involved. As I've stated, it's early in our season, but so far, we've seen good results out of the limited number of changeups thrown. Changeups can be very effective at the youth level. They worked for Eric Gagne's historic run, but also for Maddux and Glavine and numerous other pitchers at the MLB level. Why wouldn't they work in the youth game?

The other thing I prioritized this offseason is teaching my catchers how to call games. Personally, I don't like the idea of signs coming from the coach to the catcher and then to the pitcher. Too much possibility for misinterpretation. I'd rather my catchers have the knowledge to call a game themselves. While this might seem like a daunting task for kids, I had a handout I gave them to study, and we went over it at multiple practices. I also am keeping a book on all opposing hitters, so the battery can reference it in between innings. Finally, I told them I don't expect them to be perfect, and that if they make a wrong decision, that's ok. We'll learn from it. What I didn't say to them is that you might get away with a mistake every once in a while (at this level).
We've worked with multiple kids on change ups and had practically zero success. We measured velo with 4 of the kids that learned a change grip, then compared it to their fastballs, and the difference is pretty negligible. Some kids threw faster with a change grip. They're hands are small enough that many of them have to use 3 fingers just to get enough grip to throw a fastball. So, at this point, I don't see much chance of it working. When I talked to Coach B, the consultant about it he was like yeah, their hands are too small and they can't control a change if they can even find a grip that works.

Which begs the question, can they get enough grip with more/less 1.5 fingers necessary to throw a breaking ball.

Coach B is pretty adamant they can but we don't want to open a can of worms...yet.

His approach is no breaking of the wrist, change the wrist to be on the side of the ball more/less instead of behind the ball, and use the thumb to 'lift' the ball over the middle finger that's directly opposite the thumb on the ball. That does cause a little flip of the wrist, but the fingers do most of the work, not the wrist/elbow. Re: spin rate and all that, it's irrelevant. The goal isn't to throw a 12-6 curveball with 20" of break (or whatever is considered good). It's to change the spin rate from backwards to forwards and inherently throw a slower pitch because the hand is on the side of the ball, not the front. Plus they get the feel for the pitch now instead of at some time in the future....which is a positive if there is no injury risk.

Taking what he's said, and applying it, it does work. Now, if a kid can do it and get a feel for it, is another question. I constantly see kids trying to do it in warmups/practice/etc, and they are all wrist/elbow, essentially trying to almost pull their elbow back and snap their wrist to get the topspin required which....obviously that's bad.

AWvsCBsteeeerike3
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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by AWvsCBsteeeerike3 »

mikechamp wrote:
April 11 22, 9:01 pm
Joe Shlabotnik wrote:
April 11 22, 8:14 pm
mikechamp wrote:
April 11 22, 7:44 pm
Joe Shlabotnik wrote:
April 11 22, 3:37 pm
If y'all let them throw curves, do me this favor. Don't [expletive] at the home plate umpire when he calls that rainbow a ball if it's out of the zone. One of my biggest pet peeves is coaches and parents who act like their kids deserve a called strike simply because they executed a curve. Believe me there is nothing I'd rather do than punch a kid out in a tight game with a well executed curve. But it still has to drop into the zone before I'll do it.

Thank you.
Hoping you can confirm for me that the location of the pitch at the front of the plate is where the decision is made as to whether it's a ball or a strike. Is that correct?
Anywhere over the plate and between the knees and whatever-your-rulebook-says-the-top-is. Front of plate, back of plate, either side of the plate. That's why robo-ump strike calls can appear ridiculous, BTW. They are calling rulebook strikes a human would never call.
My question is much more specific, though. At what juncture of the pitch's flight is the judgment supposed to be made? Meaning, if there was a vertical plane projected via visible lasers, and as soon as the ball met that plane, the call was made, where would that vertical plane exist?
My understanding is the strike zone is a box (well box + triangle at the back of the plate) extending upwards over the plate from knees to chest (some indeterminate location). The vertical plane can be cut anywhere over the plate.

So, in theory, a nasty curveball could cross the front of the plate knee high and bounce off the back of a plate and be a strike. It could cross the front of the plate head high and break down to the chest at the very back tip of the plate (assuming the horizontal location is dead center) and be a strike. All in theory, from my understanding.

AWvsCBsteeeerike3
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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by AWvsCBsteeeerike3 »

Joe Shlabotnik wrote:
April 11 22, 8:14 pm
mikechamp wrote:
April 11 22, 7:44 pm
Joe Shlabotnik wrote:
April 11 22, 3:37 pm
If y'all let them throw curves, do me this favor. Don't [expletive] at the home plate umpire when he calls that rainbow a ball if it's out of the zone. One of my biggest pet peeves is coaches and parents who act like their kids deserve a called strike simply because they executed a curve. Believe me there is nothing I'd rather do than punch a kid out in a tight game with a well executed curve. But it still has to drop into the zone before I'll do it.

Thank you.
Hoping you can confirm for me that the location of the pitch at the front of the plate is where the decision is made as to whether it's a ball or a strike. Is that correct?
Anywhere over the plate and between the knees and whatever-your-rulebook-says-the-top-is. Front of plate, back of plate, either side of the plate. That's why robo-ump strike calls can appear ridiculous, BTW. They are calling rulebook strikes a human would never call.
One of my biggest pet peeves at the younger youth level is the upper strike zone.

A lot of kids throw softly. Like 40 mph and below. From 46', those pitches are going to have a lot of drop in them at the end of the pitch. And, they may even hit a catchers mitt dead on 5-6' past the plate (where some catchers set up) while passing at shoulder level over the plate.

We teach our kids to rest the bat on the shoulder with the hands shoulder level pre pitch, then the bat comes up when loading.

There are pitches that will do what I said, pass near the shoulders then drop into the mitt and look like strikes. But for the kids to swing, they're swinging at a pitch at their hands. Or, contrary to what you'd expect, we have to have them back up in the box if it's being called a strike so they can actually hit it.

I'm all for expanded zones, but the pitches need to be hittable.

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Re: Youth Baseball Pitching

Post by Joe Shlabotnik »

AWvsCBsteeeerike3 wrote:
April 12 22, 7:10 am
mikechamp wrote:
April 11 22, 9:01 pm
Joe Shlabotnik wrote:
April 11 22, 8:14 pm
mikechamp wrote:
April 11 22, 7:44 pm
Joe Shlabotnik wrote:
April 11 22, 3:37 pm
If y'all let them throw curves, do me this favor. Don't [expletive] at the home plate umpire when he calls that rainbow a ball if it's out of the zone. One of my biggest pet peeves is coaches and parents who act like their kids deserve a called strike simply because they executed a curve. Believe me there is nothing I'd rather do than punch a kid out in a tight game with a well executed curve. But it still has to drop into the zone before I'll do it.

Thank you.
Hoping you can confirm for me that the location of the pitch at the front of the plate is where the decision is made as to whether it's a ball or a strike. Is that correct?
Anywhere over the plate and between the knees and whatever-your-rulebook-says-the-top-is. Front of plate, back of plate, either side of the plate. That's why robo-ump strike calls can appear ridiculous, BTW. They are calling rulebook strikes a human would never call.
My question is much more specific, though. At what juncture of the pitch's flight is the judgment supposed to be made? Meaning, if there was a vertical plane projected via visible lasers, and as soon as the ball met that plane, the call was made, where would that vertical plane exist?
My understanding is the strike zone is a box (well box + triangle at the back of the plate) extending upwards over the plate from knees to chest (some indeterminate location). The vertical plane can be cut anywhere over the plate.

So, in theory, a nasty curveball could cross the front of the plate knee high and bounce off the back of a plate and be a strike. It could cross the front of the plate head high and break down to the chest at the very back tip of the plate (assuming the horizontal location is dead center) and be a strike. All in theory, from my understanding.
Exactly right.

During ump training they emphasis to watch the pitch all the way into the catchers glove without blinking. Take your time, replay what you saw in your mind and make your call. It's very easy for inexperienced umpires seeing good breaking pitches for the first time to give up too early and call a ball before seeing the entire flight.

On the other hand, strikes like ephus pitches just grazing those corners of the box like you point out, some experienced umpires will admit they just won't call because they are un-hittable.

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