MLB Award Finalist

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Popeye_Card
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Re: MLB Award Finalist

Post by Popeye_Card »

Ok. I don’t agree. Nola was 11-13 with a decently goo ERA in a year where other pitchers had outstanding ERA’s. Not too surprised some people didn’t have him in the top 5.

I get it. You like strikeouts. Some voters use other criteria.

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Big Amoco Sign
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Re: MLB Award Finalist

Post by Big Amoco Sign »

Popeye_Card wrote:
November 17 22, 10:56 am
Ok. I don’t agree. Nola was 11-13 with a decently goo ERA in a year where other pitchers had outstanding ERA’s. Not too surprised some people didn’t have him in the top 5.

I get it. You like strikeouts. Some voters use other criteria.
W/L should never play into Cy voting ever. I thought King Felix broke that line of thinking years ago. Again ERA is flawed and Phily had an atrocious defense. Pitchers should be awarded on their ability to pitch, not their defense. Nola had a 2.80 SIERA.

Nola had a 3.6% walk rate. That's not even fifth place worthy? Phillies defense: -37 OAA as a team... lol

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Fat_Bulldog
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Re: MLB Award Finalist

Post by Fat_Bulldog »

Jesus Christ. This stuff again?

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Joe Shlabotnik
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Re: MLB Award Finalist

Post by Joe Shlabotnik »

Fat_Bulldog wrote:
November 17 22, 11:14 am
Jesus Christ. This stuff again?
It's what makes the world go 'round.

Or was that gravy?

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haltz
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Re: MLB Award Finalist

Post by haltz »

Code: Select all

                                                      
Rk                  Player WPA    IP ERA+ WPA/LI  RE24
1          Sandy Alcantara 5.4 228.2  178    4.4 44.89
2              Daniel Bard 4.3  60.1  262    1.4 16.15
3                Max Fried 4.3 185.1  164    3.9 39.08
4               Zac Gallen 3.9 184.0  158    3.7 35.51
5               Edwin Diaz 3.9  62.0  297    2.1 23.61
6             Ryan Helsley 3.7  64.2  306    2.0 23.94
7               Yu Darvish 3.7 194.2  121    2.9 29.60
8            Tony Gonsolin 3.7 130.1  196    3.5 34.42
9              Julio Urias 3.7 175.0  194    2.9 33.95
10          Devin Williams 3.4  60.2  205    1.8 14.03
11            Carlos Rodon 3.4 178.0  140    2.9 29.40
12            Max Scherzer 3.4 145.1  169    3.0 32.02
13             Kyle Wright 3.3 180.1  127    1.5 24.01
14           Evan Phillips 3.2  63.0  367    2.4 27.22
15           Corbin Burnes 3.2 202.0  134    2.6 26.44
16             Alexis Diaz 2.8  63.2  244    1.7 18.18
17            Zack Wheeler 2.7 153.0  144    2.1 21.66
18         Clayton Kershaw 2.7 126.1  184    3.3 28.80
19         David Robertson 2.7  63.2  172    1.0 15.68
20           Merrill Kelly 2.6 200.1  119    3.0 20.98
21              Aaron Nola 2.4 205.0  125    3.3 25.85
22              Logan Webb 2.3 192.1  139    1.9 23.01
23          Tyler Anderson 2.3 178.2  163    2.7 32.01
24         Spencer Strider 2.3 131.2  152    3.2 26.01
25            Joe Musgrove 2.2 181.0  127    1.4 18.84

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Re: MLB Award Finalist

Post by heyzeus »

Fat_Bulldog wrote:
November 17 22, 11:14 am
Jesus Christ. This stuff again?
Patented GRB offseason magic, baby!

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Famous Mortimer
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Re: MLB Award Finalist

Post by Famous Mortimer »

Big Amoco Sign wrote:
November 17 22, 10:52 am
Popeye_Card wrote:
November 17 22, 10:45 am

Urias led the league in ERA+. Not seeing how that’s egregious either.
Urias as a fifth place vote is fine. Using that stat. Sure. Or even using outdated RA-9 WAR. Fine. Punish Nola/Wheeler for a bad defense, okay.

But Wright and Helsley and Diaz over Aaron Nola is a "okay you're banned from voting again" territory. Epitome of egregious.
Unless you're going to base the awards entirely on stats, I'm not sure it's that egregious.

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Popeye_Card
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Re: MLB Award Finalist

Post by Popeye_Card »

Big Amoco Sign wrote:
November 17 22, 11:02 am
Popeye_Card wrote:
November 17 22, 10:56 am
Ok. I don’t agree. Nola was 11-13 with a decently goo ERA in a year where other pitchers had outstanding ERA’s. Not too surprised some people didn’t have him in the top 5.

I get it. You like strikeouts. Some voters use other criteria.
W/L should never play into Cy voting ever. I thought King Felix broke that line of thinking years ago. Again ERA is flawed and Phily had an atrocious defense. Pitchers should be awarded on their ability to pitch, not their defense. Nola had a 2.80 SIERA.

Nola had a 3.6% walk rate. That's not even fifth place worthy? Phillies defense: -37 OAA as a team... lol
Here's my philosophy on this. There's a reason why the Cy Young is voted upon and not just an equation that spits out a winner. "Best pitcher" is subjective. I also view it as a results-based award, and not a predictive-based award. Wins and ERA are not as useful if you are trying to project out what a pitcher will do tomorrow, but they are decent at telling you how he and his team did previously. I don't mind them carrying more weight in a discussion on what *did* happen, not what *will* happen.

Felix Hernandez won the Cy in a year where he led the league in ERA, and had a so-so 13-12 record with the worst offense in the AL backing him up. Nola was under .500 with a top-5 NL offense behind him, and wasn't even in the top 10 in ERA. I just don't find it that surprising that some voters left him out of their top 5, but found a place for the guy who led the league in ERA (Urias) or wins (Wright).

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haltz
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Re: MLB Award Finalist

Post by haltz »

Famous Mortimer wrote:
November 17 22, 12:35 pm
Big Amoco Sign wrote:
November 17 22, 10:52 am
Popeye_Card wrote:
November 17 22, 10:45 am

Urias led the league in ERA+. Not seeing how that’s egregious either.
Urias as a fifth place vote is fine. Using that stat. Sure. Or even using outdated RA-9 WAR. Fine. Punish Nola/Wheeler for a bad defense, okay.

But Wright and Helsley and Diaz over Aaron Nola is a "okay you're banned from voting again" territory. Epitome of egregious.
Unless you're going to base the awards entirely on stats, I'm not sure it's that egregious.
There are stats that back it up as well, for whatever it's worth. Stats that are actually useful for relievers.

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Big Amoco Sign
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Re: MLB Award Finalist

Post by Big Amoco Sign »

But if you look at Denton's defense of this on Twitter, it's "Robert Horry has 7 rings so he should be in the HOF" level and less stats stuff.

But yeah it's annoying to talk about awards or have have disagreements and discourse. Forgot the forum rules.

I guess innings pitched is a huge part of this. Relievers, IMO, IMO, IMO, IMO (saying it a bunch here) should not sniff any Cy vote. And there's no "unless" there about it. Diaz is giving you about the best reliever season(s) you'll get. Or close. And he isn't worthy to me. IP matters.

MLB Writer Uses Vote Power For Offseason Clicks is all this is to me.
Popeye_Card wrote:
November 17 22, 12:58 pm

Here's my philosophy on this. There's a reason why the Cy Young is voted upon and not just an equation that spits out a winner. "Best pitcher" is subjective. I also view it as a results-based award, and not a predictive-based award. Wins and ERA are not as useful if you are trying to project out what a pitcher will do tomorrow, but they are decent at telling you how he and his team did previously. I don't mind them carrying more weight in a discussion on what *did* happen, not what *will* happen.

Felix Hernandez won the Cy in a year where he led the league in ERA, and had a so-so 13-12 record with the worst offense in the AL backing him up. Nola was under .500 with a top-5 NL offense behind him, and wasn't even in the top 10 in ERA. I just don't find it that surprising that some voters left him out of their top 5, but found a place for the guy who led the league in ERA (Urias) or wins (Wright).
In other words, the voters use dated criteria. Urias, I see the argument for a 2-5 place vote. I will concede there, ERA/ERA+ is useful and meaningful, though I still disagree overall since Nola was left off--defense is a team thing that works against Nola. I do think Diaz, Wright (wins is a team stat) and Helsley is egregious. Helsley especially.
haltz wrote:
November 17 22, 1:07 pm
to base the awards entirely on stats, I'm not sure it's that egregious.
There are stats that back it up as well, for whatever it's worth. Stats that are actually useful for relievers.
I still don't see the argument for Helsley. Unless we do change IP limit to him. RE24 is a good context-neutral stat but I am unsure 6th best at that, with IP adjustment, means he is deserving of a vote. And isn't the best ERA+/ERA- guy Phillips? And he didn't make Denton's list so...
Last edited by Big Amoco Sign on November 17 22, 4:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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