Let's Talk Catchers!

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Famous Mortimer
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Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by Famous Mortimer »

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/a- ... 43529bb3c7

I'm pretty sure this exact package has been mentioned on here, but I thought it might be interesting to have all the catcher ponderings in one place. Having had a very bad record in terms of willing trades into existence, I'm not sure this will happen, or even if I'd want to see Gorman be a superstar for another team, but it would be nice to have such a good catcher.

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heyzeus
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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by heyzeus »

I think a lot of Cardinals fans have written off Ivan Herrera because he hit poorly in his brief stint in St. Louis last year, which is wild because he barely played (22 PA in 11 games). Kid posted a .770 OPS as a 22 year old in AAA ball and has a good defensive rep.

I'm a-ok with acquiring a Vazquez/Jansen stopgap at a lower cost...as long as we are spending money or prospect trade chips for a significant upgrade in the OF or SP. I fear we sign Vazquez, sign a reliever or two, and call it an offseason.

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MrCrowesGarden
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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by MrCrowesGarden »

Vazquez would be just expensive enough and just adequate enough that he wouldn't be good, but it would be enough to prevent the Cardinals from seeking upgrades at the position.

I'm not going to write off Herrera but go get one of the actually good catchers. It'll buy you some time and some pad if Herrera does pumpkin.

MinorLeagueGuy
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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by MinorLeagueGuy »

heyzeus wrote:
November 29 22, 8:34 am
I think a lot of Cardinals fans have written off Ivan Herrera because he hit poorly in his brief stint in St. Louis last year, which is wild because he barely played (22 PA in 11 games). Kid posted a .770 OPS as a 22 year old in AAA ball and has a good defensive rep.

I'm a-ok with acquiring a Vazquez/Jansen stopgap at a lower cost...as long as we are spending money or prospect trade chips for a significant upgrade in the OF or SP. I fear we sign Vazquez, sign a reliever or two, and call it an offseason.
Yeah I'm kinda confused with what has been quoted as our offseason acquisition goals; Catcher, rotation piece, and utility guy. We have a full rotation right now, dont we? So that leads me down Ver Hagen road, and all i see there is a guy that could be stretched out if the current rotation falls apart(it will). So we're looking at another guy like DVH or John Gant, which absolutely shouldn't break the bank. The same can be said of the utility guy/DH. So the resources are definitely there to really look at the catching position for the next 2 years. Given that window, you're not talking about Contreras. So we're narrowing the search/talks to the 2 guys you mentioned, which wont cost as much. So that frugality should lead back to using more resources to focus on the latter 2 needs. Which almost of none of us feel like is a reality. Because year after year, we're told what we have to spend(roughly), and we come in under that. Followed by the gaslighting that the saved money etc will leave us padding to make trades come midseason(add payroll).

Every time I think about Herrera's expectations, I try to remind myself of the blackhole offensively Yadi was before he lost weight, changed his stance, etc.

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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by Popeye_Card »

I think I may have poo-poo'ed this same deal earlier, but I've talked myself into it. Murphy is a legit upgrade that you control for at least 3 seasons in what should be the prime of his career. Above average defender, and getting actual positive production offensively from C would be a huge benefit to the lineup, after Yadi being essentially a black hole for the last 9 seasons. Sorry Yadi - we love you and all, but you stunk with the stick.

As for the package given up, Gorman obviously has upside that would be really attractive in the lineup for the next 5+ years. But he also carries some risk. He's never gotten his K rate under control, and defensively limited as "adequate" at 2B. Liberatore I think has gotten to the point where we can see his ceiling is fairly limited (mid-rotation starter), and has enough weaknesses to cause you to question if he's ever going to rise above back-end starter. We have plenty of those types. Woodford is infinitely replaceable.

I'd go for the stability that Murphy provides. Then spend the FA dollars at top-of-rotation or MI.

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JoeMcKim
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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by JoeMcKim »

Popeye_Card wrote:
November 29 22, 12:03 pm
and defensively limited as "adequate" at 2B.
And that's with Gorman being adequate at 2B with the assistance of the shift which he won't be able to rely upon next year.

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MrCrowesGarden
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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by MrCrowesGarden »

More speculation than anything but Morosi suggests (using the observations of Katie Woo) that a Nootbaar for Jansen trade could come together at the Winter Meetings:

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CardsofSTL
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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by CardsofSTL »

I'd like that trade

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Fan_In_NY
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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by Fan_In_NY »

heyzeus wrote:
November 29 22, 8:34 am
I think a lot of Cardinals fans have written off Ivan Herrera because he hit poorly in his brief stint in St. Louis last year, which is wild because he barely played (22 PA in 11 games). Kid posted a .770 OPS as a 22 year old in AAA ball and has a good defensive rep.

I'm a-ok with acquiring a Vazquez/Jansen stopgap at a lower cost...as long as we are spending money or prospect trade chips for a significant upgrade in the OF or SP. I fear we sign Vazquez, sign a reliever or two, and call it an offseason.
I just think teams naturally pump up whoever the top catching prospect they have in the minors as "the next big thing". Happens with all teams and I think many of these players just get this "next big thing" because there is such a dearth of legit catching prospects in the minors (and in baseball).

Herrera had a .770 OPS in AAA at 22,
Knizner had .833 in AA at 22 and .798 at AA/AAA at age 23.
Carson Kelly had a .844 OPS at AAA at 22

I also don't think Vazquez comes that cheap - when looking at teams that are actually trying that Vazquez would be a meaningful upgrade for -
Giants (Joey Bart is Californian for Knizner), Astros, Brewers, Red Sox - Vazquez did play for 2 of those teams last year). Then there are teams that you never know which they will go Rockies, Angels, Cubs. With only 1 legit top guy (Contreras) I think someone like Vazquez is going to get 3 years / $30 M.

Also I know on this thread there was talk about if the Cards are going to grab a pitcher or not. Similar to most I dont think they are going to get someone at the top of the class, but I wouldnt be surprised if there is some lottery ticket/injury red flag on a 2 year deal. Assuming Waino and Flaherty are gone after the season. Mikolas and Montgomery are also free agents (I think they have a higher potential at re-signing than Flaherty) thats a whole lot of empty rotation spots and the Cards aren't going to look to fill that many holes next year - so it seems that the annual Asian reclamation project, or player that will be out for nearly all 2023 with TJ recovery but will be available 2024 will be the main targets.

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go birds
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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by go birds »

MrCrowesGarden wrote:
November 29 22, 7:41 pm
More speculation than anything but Morosi suggests (using the observations of Katie Woo) that a Nootbaar for Jansen trade could come together at the Winter Meetings:
good move imo. then put all the chips in on SS

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