Let's Talk Catchers!

Discuss all things Cardinals Baseball
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Radbird
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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by Radbird »

Granted I can’t recall seeing either of them play, but considering the difference in acquisition cost, I’d rather have Jansen.

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MinorLeagueGuy
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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by MinorLeagueGuy »

go birds wrote:
November 30 22, 9:19 am
MrCrowesGarden wrote:
November 29 22, 7:41 pm
More speculation than anything but Morosi suggests (using the observations of Katie Woo) that a Nootbaar for Jansen trade could come together at the Winter Meetings:
good move imo. then put all the chips in on SS
Brother, that aint happening.

MinorLeagueGuy
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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by MinorLeagueGuy »

MrCrowesGarden wrote:
November 29 22, 7:41 pm
More speculation than anything but Morosi suggests (using the observations of Katie Woo) that a Nootbaar for Jansen trade could come together at the Winter Meetings:
this definitely had Jays fans buzzing yesterday. I like Noot as a player, and he's probably a cool guy(cooler than Pham) in the clubhouse. i'd feel bad for him if he ended up in Toronto.

MinorLeagueGuy
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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by MinorLeagueGuy »

I keep thinking about how any of the storied franchises in the league would treat losing their future HoF catcher to retirement. If either NY team, the blue team in LA, etc were going to have to replace an Icon, I dont think they would do it shrewdly. I think they would make a splash. Even if they had dreams of graduating their top catching prospect in 2-3 years, I think they would make sure those few years were covered by the best all around catcher that was on either the trade or the free agent market. If StL isnt looking to do just that, then i think its just more evidence that we dont really belong in the "Top Teams/Franchises" conversation.

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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by heyzeus »

MinorLeagueGuy wrote:
December 1 22, 10:25 am
I keep thinking about how any of the storied franchises in the league would treat losing their future HoF catcher to retirement. If either NY team, the blue team in LA, etc were going to have to replace an Icon, I dont think they would do it shrewdly. I think they would make a splash. Even if they had dreams of graduating their top catching prospect in 2-3 years, I think they would make sure those few years were covered by the best all around catcher that was on either the trade or the free agent market. If StL isnt looking to do just that, then i think its just more evidence that we dont really belong in the "Top Teams/Franchises" conversation.
This post made me think. Obviously, Yadi Molinas don't grow on trees, and even the big market franchises don't always have a glamour boy catcher. So what have they done when such a guy retires/leaves?

Comp #1: Jorge Posada. Played all 17 years for the Yankees. Not a HOFer, but had a solid career (275 HR, .848 OPS, bunch of WS titles, 5 ASGs, one top-3 MVP finish).

What did the Yankees do the year after he retired? Signed a 2 year, $11.5 mil deal with Russell Martin. He had made 2 ASGs with the Dodgers at that point and was a solid player but not a superstar or anything.

Comp #2: Mike Piazza. Played 6.5 years for the Dodgers. HOFer. His whole stint with LA was ROY followed by all star appearances and MVP votes. In 98 they traded him (with Todd Zeile!) to the Marlins for a package that included Gary Sheffield, catcher prospect Charles Johnson, and a toasted Bobby Bonilla.

What did the Dodgers do the year after they trade Piazza? Gave the starts to Charles Johnson (then age 26) who put up a 70 OPS+, who they traded later that year for Arnie Gooch (lol) and Todd Hundley. Hundley held down C for two years, the second of which was pretty great but in only 90 games (143 OPS+).

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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by Popeye_Card »

MinorLeagueGuy wrote:
December 1 22, 10:25 am
I keep thinking about how any of the storied franchises in the league would treat losing their future HoF catcher to retirement. If either NY team, the blue team in LA, etc were going to have to replace an Icon, I dont think they would do it shrewdly. I think they would make a splash. Even if they had dreams of graduating their top catching prospect in 2-3 years, I think they would make sure those few years were covered by the best all around catcher that was on either the trade or the free agent market. If StL isnt looking to do just that, then i think its just more evidence that we dont really belong in the "Top Teams/Franchises" conversation.
Well the Yankees replaced Jeter with Didi Gregorious. They did go out and get Russell Martin to replace Posada, though he was coming off a couple mediocre years at the end of his time with the Dodgers.

Hanley Ramirez basically took over the DH role after David Ortiz retired. They did go out and get JD Martinez the next offseason.

Trying to think of other HoF caliber players recently who spent most of their years with one of the storied franchises. I don't think there's a big tradition out there of teams trying to replace a legend with a huge splash trade or FA signing.

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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by Big Amoco Sign »

Popeye_Card wrote:
December 1 22, 12:20 pm
MinorLeagueGuy wrote:
December 1 22, 10:25 am
I keep thinking about how any of the storied franchises in the league would treat losing their future HoF catcher to retirement. If either NY team, the blue team in LA, etc were going to have to replace an Icon, I dont think they would do it shrewdly. I think they would make a splash. Even if they had dreams of graduating their top catching prospect in 2-3 years, I think they would make sure those few years were covered by the best all around catcher that was on either the trade or the free agent market. If StL isnt looking to do just that, then i think its just more evidence that we dont really belong in the "Top Teams/Franchises" conversation.
Well the Yankees replaced Jeter with Didi Gregorious. They did go out and get Russell Martin to replace Posada, though he was coming off a couple mediocre years at the end of his time with the Dodgers.

Hanley Ramirez basically took over the DH role after David Ortiz retired. They did go out and get JD Martinez the next offseason.

Trying to think of other HoF caliber players recently who spent most of their years with one of the storied franchises. I don't think there's a big tradition out there of teams trying to replace a legend with a huge splash trade or FA signing.
Didi posted more WAR in 2015 than Jeter did in his final three seasons combined as a Yank. In fact he had the highest of all the hitters on the Yankees that year. Would be cool if Cardinals got a replacement like that. I do think an acquisition of Jansen and Murphy could be those types of moves.

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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by MrCrowesGarden »

It doesn’t have to be necessarily a splash at catcher but an offseason highlighted by Vázquez and relievers would be a real kick to the dingding.

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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by dmarx114 »

MinorLeagueGuy wrote:
December 1 22, 10:25 am
I keep thinking about how any of the storied franchises in the league would treat losing their future HoF catcher to retirement. If either NY team, the blue team in LA, etc were going to have to replace an Icon, I dont think they would do it shrewdly. I think they would make a splash. Even if they had dreams of graduating their top catching prospect in 2-3 years, I think they would make sure those few years were covered by the best all around catcher that was on either the trade or the free agent market. If StL isnt looking to do just that, then i think its just more evidence that we dont really belong in the "Top Teams/Franchises" conversation.
Maybe I am misunderstanding your post, so please correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying that the Cards should "make a splash" at catcher, even if it's not the "shrewd" thing to do?

And are you also saying that if the Cardinals don't do the shrewd thing, that they don't belong in the "top teams conversation"? (Not even sure what "top teams convo" means)

So I am confused. Don't we want the Cardinals to do the smart thing?

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Popeye_Card
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Re: Let's Talk Catchers!

Post by Popeye_Card »

Big Amoco Sign wrote:
December 1 22, 12:31 pm
Popeye_Card wrote:
December 1 22, 12:20 pm
MinorLeagueGuy wrote:
December 1 22, 10:25 am
I keep thinking about how any of the storied franchises in the league would treat losing their future HoF catcher to retirement. If either NY team, the blue team in LA, etc were going to have to replace an Icon, I dont think they would do it shrewdly. I think they would make a splash. Even if they had dreams of graduating their top catching prospect in 2-3 years, I think they would make sure those few years were covered by the best all around catcher that was on either the trade or the free agent market. If StL isnt looking to do just that, then i think its just more evidence that we dont really belong in the "Top Teams/Franchises" conversation.
Well the Yankees replaced Jeter with Didi Gregorious. They did go out and get Russell Martin to replace Posada, though he was coming off a couple mediocre years at the end of his time with the Dodgers.

Hanley Ramirez basically took over the DH role after David Ortiz retired. They did go out and get JD Martinez the next offseason.

Trying to think of other HoF caliber players recently who spent most of their years with one of the storied franchises. I don't think there's a big tradition out there of teams trying to replace a legend with a huge splash trade or FA signing.
Didi posted more WAR in 2015 than Jeter did in his final three seasons combined as a Yank. In fact he had the highest of all the hitters on the Yankees that year. Would be cool if Cardinals got a replacement like that. I do think an acquisition of Jansen and Murphy could be those types of moves.
He did, but that's more of a statement on how poor Jeter was in his last few seasons than a glowing review for Gregorious. Didi was coming off of a 0.3 fWAR campaign for the D'backs the previous year, and had 1.9 career fWAR when the Yankees traded for him. It wasn't exactly a huge splash addition, though he did perform well for a few seasons in NY.

It'll be pretty easy to upgrade over what Molina has given the Cardinals the past few years. Even the most boring of acquisitions like signing Vasquez will be an improvement. If the Cardinals don't at least do that, then yeah they should probably be riding the shame train.

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