General Soccer Thread

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MrSaigon

Re: General Soccer Thread

Post by MrSaigon »

thrill wrote:
lukethedrifter wrote:So what are the theories on why US players aren't as skillful? Is it because they all grow up playing on teams, in leagues thus don't have the unconstrained freedom to discover slick moves on the streets playing with their friends?

Maybe that's why US keepers ARE competitive. The same doesn't apply.
I place more blame on our youth system than the lack of "street" play. In Europe and South America, players are signed to professional development deals as teenagers (and earlier) where they are shaped to fit into the team's system. Clubs that have historically valued continuity in style are the most successful (Ajax, Bayern Munich, AC Milan, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, the list goes on). In the US, kids don't get as many hours playing to develop their genius (Malcolm Gladwell nods approvingly) because our professional MLS club development system doesn't get to treat their kids as pros until much later in their developmental age and the youth club teams are big business with big time coaches making 6 figures a year so emphasis is placed on results and not skill development.

It's a systemic issue and it's what Klinsmann and Claudio Reyna are working to try to change right now. More national training systems, uniform coaching policies and styles and MLS is doing a much better job funding their developmental academies as the league becomes increasingly more profitable and they can devote more resources to it.

When I read/hear what needs to happen to take the US to the next level, it kind of sounds like: 'The problem is American kids have too much of a childhood.'

/Mrs. Lovejoy

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robbotis
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Re: General Soccer Thread

Post by robbotis »

Fat Strat wrote:I won't disagree with any of that about Shea. I've only seen him in the USMNT games, but I've really liked the potential that's obviously there. I could criticize him for some things in the last two games, but he's just so young and inexperienced, that I'll give him a pass. They were saying last night that Shea will go in the next transfer window. Hopefully he can get some more good exposure and find his way to a good club team.

We'll see on Altidore vs. Agudelo. They're different players. When was the last time that Altidore did something significant for the USMNT? When was the last time we came out of a US game and thought Altidore performed well? I missed the entire Gold Cup, so that might be coloring my impression of him. And yeah, 6 goals in however many games for whatever club team... He hasn't been able to translate it to international play for us yet.
Strat- thank you!
Altidore is nothing. Defintely play Aguedelo over him.
I agree, Shea is the real deal. He has a complete game. He has speed, skill, size, vision.
He's shown the ability to play just about everywhere too. I think you add him to the "core". By next World Cup, I'm sure he'll be The Man for the US.

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Re: General Soccer Thread

Post by Fat Strat »

When I read/hear what needs to happen to take the US to the next level, it kind of sounds like: 'The problem is American kids have too much of a childhood.'

/Mrs. Lovejoy
The problem is American kids don't have enough childhood.

- Mrs. Doubtfire


(I'm not disagreeing with you, just posting the first thing that popped into my head when I read "Mrs. Lovejoy".)

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thrill
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Re: General Soccer Thread

Post by thrill »

Listen, I'm not a Jozy Altidore apologist. I'm just realistic.

1. He's too young to write off.
2. He's gets consistent playing time and scores goals on a top 3 team in Holland (a league that is significantly superior to MLS).
3. He's been better than people give him credit for on the international level. He gets no service. None of our forwards do. No one could step in and do a better job, which leads me to my next points.

4. Juan Agudelo gets no consistent playing time and does not consistently score goals on a middling MLS team.
5. Juan scored in two of his first three caps. Since then? Bupkis. Gold Cup? Nada. Friendlies? Nope. 2 goals, 12 games. Jozy has 12 goals in 40 games. So Jozy has a 1 in 4 strike record, Agudelo a 1 in 6 strike record. One of those is better.
6. Agudelo gets to come on late in games after Jozy has worn down opposing defenders with fresh, 18 year old legs. When he plays from the start, he doesn't look as good. See: Gold Cup.

7. Brek Shea is not a forward. He can't play with his back to goal, he is at his best running at people with the ball on his feet. He, like Clint Dempsey & Landon Donovan, is more valuable in the midfield.

Listen, I'm not telling you Jozy Altidore is a world beater. I'm not telling Juan Agudelo sucks. I'm telling you that we have no better alternative to Jozy other than possibly playing Dempsey up top and clearly he sees more of the ball in the midfield which is a good thing. We've seen Clint deployed as the target striker and he is anonymous for long stretches for the same reason Jozy is, he's not getting the ball in dangerous positions. Juan Agudelo isn't doing anything that Jozy hasn't done or can't do. He's not the answer yet.

Complain all you want about how we lack elite talent at all levels, let alone striker, but if that's a huge problem for you, you're supporting the wrong team. Do not, however, pretend Jozy is taking playing time away from players who deserve it more. He's not. You can hate him and think he's an absolute donkey but don't act like we have better options. If you want to support lethal strikers, be a Spain fan. Be a Germany fan.

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Re: General Soccer Thread

Post by robbotis »

thrill wrote:Listen, I'm not a Jozy Altidore apologist. I'm just realistic.

1. He's too young to write off.
2. He's gets consistent playing time and scores goals on a top 3 team in Holland (a league that is significantly superior to MLS).
3. He's been better than people give him credit for on the international level. He gets no service. None of our forwards do. No one could step in and do a better job, which leads me to my next points.

4. Juan Agudelo gets no consistent playing time and does not consistently score goals on a middling MLS team.
5. Juan scored in two of his first three caps. Since then? Bupkis. Gold Cup? Nada. Friendlies? Nope. 2 goals, 12 games. Jozy has 12 goals in 40 games. So Jozy has a 1 in 4 strike record, Agudelo a 1 in 6 strike record. One of those is better.
6. Agudelo gets to come on late in games after Jozy has worn down opposing defenders with fresh, 18 year old legs. When he plays from the start, he doesn't look as good. See: Gold Cup.

7. Brek Shea is not a forward. He can't play with his back to goal, he is at his best running at people with the ball on his feet. He, like Clint Dempsey & Landon Donovan, is more valuable in the midfield.

Listen, I'm not telling you Jozy Altidore is a world beater. I'm not telling Juan Agudelo sucks. I'm telling you that we have no better alternative to Jozy other than possibly playing Dempsey up top and clearly he sees more of the ball in the midfield which is a good thing. We've seen Clint deployed as the target striker and he is anonymous for long stretches for the same reason Jozy is, he's not getting the ball in dangerous positions. Juan Agudelo isn't doing anything that Jozy hasn't done or can't do. He's not the answer yet.

Complain all you want about how we lack elite talent at all levels, let alone striker, but if that's a huge problem for you, you're supporting the wrong team. Do not, however, pretend Jozy is taking playing time away from players who deserve it more. He's not. You can hate him and think he's an absolute donkey but don't act like we have better options. If you want to support lethal strikers, be a Spain fan. Be a Germany fan.
Klinsman doesn't need or want a holding forward, and that's what Jozy is. Aguedelo at least can create. Thats all I'm looking for.

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Re: General Soccer Thread

Post by thrill »

robbotis wrote: Klinsman doesn't need or want a holding forward, and that's what Jozy is. Aguedelo at least can create. Thats all I'm looking for.
Agudelo hasn't created [expletive] in the US uniform since his first three games. He runs more than Jozy so he looks more active. He's not actually doing anything.

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Re: General Soccer Thread

Post by thrill »

I like this:

http://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2011/9/7 ... nt-dempsey
Image
Based on his recent form in Major League Soccer and for the United States, as well as his age and natural talent, Brek Shea should probably be first choice on the left wing. Whether or not one agrees with this might not be relevant if Klinsmann is firmly convinced of this, which might already be the case. He's certainly making it hard to drop him. If we can agree on this sentiment, the aforementioned three players and Shea make up four of the best possible front six.

One of the players in the front six has to be a holding midfielder. Who can or should occupy that position could be the subject of a separate 3000 word column, but it's hard to argue that the team needs at least one holding midfielder. The United States has serious strength in depth in that position, every team in the world plays with a holding midfielder, and the United States defense would be in serious trouble without one. That's five out of the front six positions filled, if we're simply filling out a team based on talent and practicality.

So, who's the sixth player? The final piece in the puzzle? Here's a hint: It's no striker in our current player pool. If Jurgen Klinsmann is trying to play a possession-based style, none of the strikers in the current player pool fit into this team. If the last player should be the most talented and/or accomplished, it certainly isn't a striker. There are 10 or so players that both deserve a place and fit the system more than any of the strikers in the current player pool.

For the sake of this argument, let's say that the final player in this hypothetical team is Jose Fransisco Torres. This is not because I have any particular affinity to him or because I think he is necessarily the best player available. However, like Shea, Klinsmann seems to have an affinity for him and he certainly fits Klinsmann's desire for a possession-based team and technically gifted players. Personally, I'm a Mikkel Diskerud guy, but what are you going to do?

This leaves the USMNT with...no strikers. In a team that fits the most accomplished players into the side, makes room for Klinsmann favorites, and only utilizes players that fit Klinsmann's ideals, it doesn't make any sense to fit any of the current USMNT strikers into the first XI.

Agudelo and Altidore have had their chances and neither has played effectively in Klinsmann's system. Yes, Agudelo has shown flashes of his talent, but is that going to win games in the Hexagonal? It may seem silly to be thinking about the Hexagonal in September of 2011, but if Klinsmann really is trying to install a new system and change the mentality of the team, it's important to start working towards that now so the team is a well-oiled machine, not a work in progress when the Hex hits.

Whenever the question of how to address the striker problem is brought up, none of the options that are presented are particularly great. The player pool is loaded with MLS journeymen, has-beens, and guys who don't quite fit the system. Even the guys who don't fall into any of the three categories don't constitute 'international quality'. The country is light on great strikers. It's not really anyone's fault, it just happens. This should be fixed over time with MLS academies producing more talent every year, but it's a long way off. Klinsmann has to play the hand he's currently being dealt.

...

In this setup, Brek Shea is a traditional winger, while Landon Donovan cuts inside. Timothy Chandler, who is right-footed, can play left back in this situation because providing width down the left flank going forward is not his primary (or even secondary) function. On the other side, Steve Cherundolo gets forward and provides width on the right hand side to make up for the fact that Donovan will pinch inside. Stuart Holden, a two-way midfielder, should provide some cover if Cherundolo is caught up the pitch.

Meanwhile, the major creative outlet and ability to keep possession comes from Dempsey and Jose Fransisco Torres. Torres is one of the most creative and most technically adept players in the United States pool, but his defensive abilities and positioning sense are questionable. With Holden back in the team, these deficiencies will be masked. He'll bomb forward from the center of midfield while Dempsey will come back from his "striker" position, playing more as an attacking midfielder. Hence, the term "false nine".

I know, I know, Dempsey is not a striker. At least half the people reading this probably abhor the idea of Dempsey as a striker, especially as the "lone striker" in a "one striker system". I may have caused thousands of USMNT supporters to vomit all over their keyboards, or at least the ones who didn't scroll down when they clicked on this and decide it was a tl;dr scenario.

But, this kind of thing is not without precedent. It's not like no one has ever successfully taken one of their best attacking midfield players and played him as a striker, simply to get their best talent on the field. Japan did exactly that at the 2010 World Cup with Keisuke Honda, despite the fact that they had better depth at striker than the United States does. That decision ended up being an effective one. Portugal has, on occasion, asked Cristiano Ronaldo to play as a lone striker. Ghana had winger Jordan Ayew up top alone against Brazil on Monday. It's not an absurd suggestion.

The best part about this suggested setup? It's a realistic solution. It takes into account Jurgen Klinsmann's preferred style of play and players that are currently in his long-term plans, or so we think. Obviously, there are a select few people on the face of the earth aware of Klinsmann's long term plans for Jose Fransisco Torres and Brek Shea, but his selections and their performances suggest that Klinsmann sees them as the future of the team right now.

It's a team tactically balanced between attack and defense, focused on creativity and keeping possession while still aiding the defense. Only Clint Dempsey is being forced to play out of position in a setup that gets talent onto the field while fitting the system, and based on his time spent as an attacking central midfielder for Fulham, it's only a small adjustment positionally speaking. Torres' defensive liabilities are accounted for. The team has width and numbers in the center. The three-man center of midfield is not reliant on specific players and could change easily based on form, fitness, and opponent.

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Re: General Soccer Thread

Post by robbotis »

thrill wrote:I like this:

http://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2011/9/7 ... nt-dempsey
Image
Based on his recent form in Major League Soccer and for the United States, as well as his age and natural talent, Brek Shea should probably be first choice on the left wing. Whether or not one agrees with this might not be relevant if Klinsmann is firmly convinced of this, which might already be the case. He's certainly making it hard to drop him. If we can agree on this sentiment, the aforementioned three players and Shea make up four of the best possible front six.

One of the players in the front six has to be a holding midfielder. Who can or should occupy that position could be the subject of a separate 3000 word column, but it's hard to argue that the team needs at least one holding midfielder. The United States has serious strength in depth in that position, every team in the world plays with a holding midfielder, and the United States defense would be in serious trouble without one. That's five out of the front six positions filled, if we're simply filling out a team based on talent and practicality.

So, who's the sixth player? The final piece in the puzzle? Here's a hint: It's no striker in our current player pool. If Jurgen Klinsmann is trying to play a possession-based style, none of the strikers in the current player pool fit into this team. If the last player should be the most talented and/or accomplished, it certainly isn't a striker. There are 10 or so players that both deserve a place and fit the system more than any of the strikers in the current player pool.

For the sake of this argument, let's say that the final player in this hypothetical team is Jose Fransisco Torres. This is not because I have any particular affinity to him or because I think he is necessarily the best player available. However, like Shea, Klinsmann seems to have an affinity for him and he certainly fits Klinsmann's desire for a possession-based team and technically gifted players. Personally, I'm a Mikkel Diskerud guy, but what are you going to do?

This leaves the USMNT with...no strikers. In a team that fits the most accomplished players into the side, makes room for Klinsmann favorites, and only utilizes players that fit Klinsmann's ideals, it doesn't make any sense to fit any of the current USMNT strikers into the first XI.

Agudelo and Altidore have had their chances and neither has played effectively in Klinsmann's system. Yes, Agudelo has shown flashes of his talent, but is that going to win games in the Hexagonal? It may seem silly to be thinking about the Hexagonal in September of 2011, but if Klinsmann really is trying to install a new system and change the mentality of the team, it's important to start working towards that now so the team is a well-oiled machine, not a work in progress when the Hex hits.

Whenever the question of how to address the striker problem is brought up, none of the options that are presented are particularly great. The player pool is loaded with MLS journeymen, has-beens, and guys who don't quite fit the system. Even the guys who don't fall into any of the three categories don't constitute 'international quality'. The country is light on great strikers. It's not really anyone's fault, it just happens. This should be fixed over time with MLS academies producing more talent every year, but it's a long way off. Klinsmann has to play the hand he's currently being dealt.

...

In this setup, Brek Shea is a traditional winger, while Landon Donovan cuts inside. Timothy Chandler, who is right-footed, can play left back in this situation because providing width down the left flank going forward is not his primary (or even secondary) function. On the other side, Steve Cherundolo gets forward and provides width on the right hand side to make up for the fact that Donovan will pinch inside. Stuart Holden, a two-way midfielder, should provide some cover if Cherundolo is caught up the pitch.

Meanwhile, the major creative outlet and ability to keep possession comes from Dempsey and Jose Fransisco Torres. Torres is one of the most creative and most technically adept players in the United States pool, but his defensive abilities and positioning sense are questionable. With Holden back in the team, these deficiencies will be masked. He'll bomb forward from the center of midfield while Dempsey will come back from his "striker" position, playing more as an attacking midfielder. Hence, the term "false nine".

I know, I know, Dempsey is not a striker. At least half the people reading this probably abhor the idea of Dempsey as a striker, especially as the "lone striker" in a "one striker system". I may have caused thousands of USMNT supporters to vomit all over their keyboards, or at least the ones who didn't scroll down when they clicked on this and decide it was a tl;dr scenario.

But, this kind of thing is not without precedent. It's not like no one has ever successfully taken one of their best attacking midfield players and played him as a striker, simply to get their best talent on the field. Japan did exactly that at the 2010 World Cup with Keisuke Honda, despite the fact that they had better depth at striker than the United States does. That decision ended up being an effective one. Portugal has, on occasion, asked Cristiano Ronaldo to play as a lone striker. Ghana had winger Jordan Ayew up top alone against Brazil on Monday. It's not an absurd suggestion.

The best part about this suggested setup? It's a realistic solution. It takes into account Jurgen Klinsmann's preferred style of play and players that are currently in his long-term plans, or so we think. Obviously, there are a select few people on the face of the earth aware of Klinsmann's long term plans for Jose Fransisco Torres and Brek Shea, but his selections and their performances suggest that Klinsmann sees them as the future of the team right now.

It's a team tactically balanced between attack and defense, focused on creativity and keeping possession while still aiding the defense. Only Clint Dempsey is being forced to play out of position in a setup that gets talent onto the field while fitting the system, and based on his time spent as an attacking central midfielder for Fulham, it's only a small adjustment positionally speaking. Torres' defensive liabilities are accounted for. The team has width and numbers in the center. The three-man center of midfield is not reliant on specific players and could change easily based on form, fitness, and opponent.
Good article. I agree. Certainly no striker on the US side is one of it's best 15 or so players. I think Klinsman will figure that out somehow.

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Re: General Soccer Thread

Post by Fat Strat »

Why would you keep Edu in there instead of Bradley? Otherwise I don't mind that at all. I really like Dempsey in the midfield, but he would be better up top than Agudelo and Altidore.

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Re: General Soccer Thread

Post by thrill »

Fat Strat wrote:Why would you keep Edu in there instead of Bradley?
I wouldn't.

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