Former Cardinals Watch

[cpebbles]

I apologize for not being able to produce a quote from all 28 MLB GMs who were not involved in the trade, but anyone who isn't desperately clinging to an argument would acknowledge that Mozeliak came off very poorly in and around baseball on that trade.

[Popeye_Card]

I apologize for not being able to produce a quote from all 28 MLB GMs who were not involved in the trade, but anyone who isn't desperately clinging to an argument would acknowledge that Mozeliak came off very poorly in and around baseball on that trade.

I apologize that you still don't recognize that Rasmus was perhaps not valued as much around the league as some may think.

I don't care if Mo comes off bad among his peers. His team, exclusively by this point brought in, extended, and/or developed during his tenure, is kicking the NL's ass right now at a reasonable payroll. At some point this needs to be recognized that it isn't all just dumb luck. Maybe the man knows what he's doing. Yes, better than his peers.

[cpebbles]

I apologize that you still don't recognize that Rasmus was perhaps not valued as much around the league as some may think.

"Some" being the people who were in position to make other offers.

Seriously, you started at one rival GM thinking Mozeliak got screwed, ended at "Aha! Rosenthal only directly quoted five GMs while making the point that GMs around baseball think Mozeliak got screwed!" and you still won't acknowledge that maybe MLB front offices were surprised at the low return. The forum is willing to make some pretty absurd leaps of logic today to back up this notion that has somehow taken hold that Rasmus's absence directly led to the World Series title.

[Vidor]

I'm a little bit shocked to read that folks are still calling that trade "indefensible". The big shiny trophy that we got as a result of that trade is a pretty good defense. Colby Rasmus's .569 OPS as a Toronto Blue Jay to date is also a pretty good defense. Never again having to read what his father is babbling about is a good defense. The excellent relief pitcher we got is a good defense, and if either of the players we draft this summer make the big leagues with St. Louis, that is also a good defense.

It is true that reaction to the trade was highly negative. Subsequent events proved that reaction incorrect. The suggestion has been made that the trade doesn't look so good if we don't win the World Series--but we did win the World Series, and we would not have if Colby Rasmus had remained on the team.

[greenback44]

But is Jay + Rzepczynski really that much worse than Rasmus?

Everyone is trying to piss me off today, isn't that it?

My point was pretty clear here, that I doubt there's a 100-page thread if Jay gets traded for Jackson and Dotel. And right now Jay looks like he's awfully close to Rasmus. That discussion was driven more by some weird emotional ties to a decent, but overhyped, former prospect than it was a sober analysis of the state of the Cardinals' front office.

[Vidor]

And right now Jay looks like he's awfully close to Rasmus.

I don't trust WAR, but provided for information--Jay has a 1.1 at Fangraphs for this year to date and Rasmus has 0.4. Assuming I'm reading that correctly.

[greenback44]

I'm a little bit shocked to read that folks are still calling that trade "indefensible". The big shiny trophy that we got as a result of that trade is a pretty good defense.

The Cardinals could in theory have had the same September and October if they had included Shelby Miller and Oscar Taveras in the trade. I'm pretty sure John Mozeliak would agree with the consensus that that would've been enormously stupid. Which is to say, at some point the price for Jackson/Dotel/Rzepczynski would've been too high, shiny trophy or not.

[Popeye_Card]

I apologize that you still don't recognize that Rasmus was perhaps not valued as much around the league as some may think.

"Some" being the people who were in position to make other offers.

Seriously, you started at one rival GM thinking Mozeliak got screwed, ended at "Aha! Rosenthal only directly quoted five GMs while making the point that GMs around baseball think Mozeliak got screwed!" and you still won't acknowledge that maybe MLB front offices were surprised at the low return. The forum is willing to make some pretty absurd leaps of logic today to back up this notion that has somehow taken hold that Rasmus's absence directly led to the World Series title.

No, "some" was directed at fans.

Sorry, but YOU started at "everyone in baseball". I retorted with "one mystery GM", which I'm recalling from a different article I believe, and asked for a source. You gave Rosenthal, who quoted a few random execs--keys being that we don't really know how many (he kept saying "one exec"--it could have been one dude, it could have been five--we don't know), and we don't know what an "exec" is--decent chance that Rosenthal wasn't able to talk to a single GM that night. Burden of proof still falls on you to prove your point that "everyone in baseball" was laughing at the poor dumb Cardinals.

I made no leaps in logic assuming the Rasmus return led directly to a title. It was one move, some of the return did help, but I'm not naive enough to think that one move leads to a title.

My point is, and always is if you pay attention, that Mo is constantly criticized for making dumb moves. (Side note here--a lot of GM's are criticized for making dumb moves, but when we think they might like Colby Rasmus I guess they are now smart.) Meanwhile he's built one of the best MLB teams and organizations in the league, but it keeps getting chalked up to a blind squirrel finding dozens of acorns.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

I don't trust WAR, but provided for information--Jay has a 1.1 at Fangraphs for this year to date and Rasmus has 0.4. Assuming I'm reading that correctly.

I'm not quite sure what this post means.

Since you don't trust WAR, are you saying that it is wrong and Rasmus has been better than Jay?

Or are you saying that you don't trust WAR, but it is nevertheless accurate and proves Jay is better than Rasmus thus far this year?

I think most everyone here will agree that Jay has been better than Rasmus this year and the numbers reflect that.

[Vidor]

I'm a little bit shocked to read that folks are still calling that trade "indefensible". The big shiny trophy that we got as a result of that trade is a pretty good defense.

The Cardinals could in theory have had the same September and October if they had included Shelby Miller and Oscar Taveras in the trade. I'm pretty sure John Mozeliak would agree with the consensus that that would've been enormously stupid. Which is to say, at some point the price for Jackson/Dotel/Rzepczynski would've been too high, shiny trophy or not.

It certainly is nice that we didn't cough up our two best prospects, but as far as a price being too high for a championship--it would have to be awfully high, if we're talking theoreticals. Ask Cub fans how much they'd pay for a shiny trophy.

Of course the players you mention are an interesting comparison to Rasmus. If everything works out, Miller and Taveras will be the cornerstones of the Cardinals for years. Rasmus, for his part, seems destined to be an underachiever (or maybe he was just overrated in the first place, but the result is the same), and by 2011 it was pretty clear that he was going to be hitting the road when he was eligible for free agency in a couple of years.