Coronavirus

[Freed Roger]

not really unique to covid though eh? everybody points out articles they disagree/dislike for a variety of reasons and our president reinforces to never trust news so, that's just where we are as a society.

and further, imo, I'd say news orgs/entities should not be in the business of making a profit but that goes against our capitalist society so anything to drive clicks, views and advert dollars is all that matters. if i can get rich making you angry or scared and if that happens to further wedge society, i can do that and not be held accountable because free market!

At least they got a chance to make false equivalencies between the MEDIA!! spreading bad info like its same as GOP-US govt doing it with our tax dollars.

Not sure I understand your point...

Too bad.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

Ha. Somewhat on queue, here's a guy talking about a study that came out a couple days ago regarding the immune system in children vs adults.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfQdmOW9Xx8

Here's the study he talks about. https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/earl ... ed.abd5487

Little background. There are two arms of the immune system. The innate arm (natural killer cells, interferons, microphages) gets to work right away as soon as something is discovered. It's like the [expletive] carpet bombers of WW2. Just recognize something is there and then send a bunch of planes with a bunch of bombs and unleash enough hell that hopefully the target is destroyed or damaged or whatever.

The adaptive arm (t-cells, antibodies, plasma, etc) takes a little more time. To keep with the military analogy, they're like the navy seals. They'll recognize a target, do some recon, search for intelligence, look at past missions, figure out what it is, form a plan, wait for some word from the carpet bombing raids, then attack.

This analogy fails in that the adaptive arm in this case is responsible for a lot of collateral damage via cytokine causing inflammation and other problems.

Having said that, here are some quotes: Underlining and blue is mine

Children and youth infected with SARS-CoV-2 have milder disease than do adults and, even among those with the recently described multi-system inflammatory syndrome (MIS-C), mortality is rare. The reasons for the differences in clinical manifestations are unknown, but suggest that age-dependent factors may modulate the anti-viral immune response. We compared cytokine, humoral, and cellular immune responses in pediatric (children and youth, age < 24 years) (n=65) and adult (n=60) patients with COVID-19 at a metropolitan hospital system in New York City. The pediatric patients had a shorter length of stay, decreased requirement for mechanical ventilation and lower mortality compared to adults. The serum concentrations of IL-17A and IFN-γ innate arm indicators, but not TNF-α or IL-6adaptive arm indicators, were inversely related to age. Adults mounted a more robust T cell response to the viral spike protein compared to pediatric patients as evidenced by increased expression of CD25+ on CD4+ T cells and the frequency of IFN-γ+CD4+ T cells. Moreover, serum neutralizing antibody titers and antibody-dependent cellular phagocytosis were higher in adults compared to pediatric COVID-19 patients. The neutralizing antibody titer correlated positively with age and negatively with IL-17A and IFN-γ serum concentrations. There were no differences in anti-spike protein antibody titers to other human coronaviruses. Together these findings demonstrate that the poor outcome in hospitalized adults with COVID-19 compared to children may not be attributable to a failure to generate adaptive immune responses.

The results from our study provide new insights into potential mechanisms that may contribute to age-related differences in disease resolution or enhanced pathology in COVID-19 patients and may have implications for ongoing efforts with convalescent plasma and the development of therapeutic antibodies. The finding that adults who did poorly had high titers of antibodies that were both neutralizing and induced phagocytosis as well as the greater T cell responses suggest that boosting of these functional responses to the spike protein, particularly late in the course of disease, may not be beneficial. In contrast, boosting of early innate immune responses may be important.

In summary, we have identified differences in humoral and cellular immune responses to SARS-CoV2 infection between pediatric and adult COVID-19 patients and have distinguished responses that were age-related or associated with the clinical course. Our studies suggest that early immune responses mediated by cells producing IL-17A and IFN-γ resulted in more rapid resolution of the viral infection and may have mitigated against the progressive cytokine release and tissue pathology that occurs with more robust adaptive immune responses.

The tl;dr: Kids have a stronger innate arm response and (because of that?) a weaker adaptive arm response. Adults have a weaker innate response and a stronger adaptive arm response. The adaptive arm response is responsible for cytokine storms, inflammation, etc. Kids with multi inflammatory syndrome, though rare, had an immune response similar to adults.

Small sample size, not peer reviewed, not a prospective study.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

not really unique to covid though eh? everybody points out articles they disagree/dislike for a variety of reasons and our president reinforces to never trust news so, that's just where we are as a society.

and further, imo, I'd say news orgs/entities should not be in the business of making a profit but that goes against our capitalist society so anything to drive clicks, views and advert dollars is all that matters. if i can get rich making you angry or scared and if that happens to further wedge society, i can do that and not be held accountable because free market!

At least they got a chance to make false equivalencies between the MEDIA!! spreading bad info like its same as GOP-US govt doing it with our tax dollars.

Not sure I understand your point...

Too bad.

My loss, assuredly.

[Leroy]

I crossed the line when I said I don't believe the media or the government.

[Jocephus]

i admittedly get "annoyed"/eyeroll at the "that's now how we do things up here in the dakota's, we're just hard working people who go about our day" "real america" talk. i'm sure i'm annoying too though. whatever, hopefully i'll be dead before the country truly is.

[Leroy]

I'm sure. I try not to put it that way though I probably do. It is just hard to view things through someone else's eyes.

I hope I never said 'real America' though, because the Dakotas are far from what I would consider the majority of the country. I know that. These two states have a population the size of maybe Philadelphia.

[Jocephus]

no you haven't said "real america" directly but that idea that the plains/midwest/non big city places are what the old, good america is still. that vibe (even if unintentional). agree on difficulty through others eyes.

also not meaning to attack you or come at ya. this thread has gotten a bit of track. i'm glad you have time to post.

[mikechamp]

Allow me to get this thread back on track:

Most people with COVID-19 develop symptoms, study finds

A new meta-analysis from PLOS Medicine is casting doubt on the theory that 50 percent of those with COVID-19 are asymptomatic, showing that four out of five with the virus display symptoms.

Led by researchers at the University of Bern in Switzerland, the paper analyzed dozens of studies from March through early June of individuals who tested positive for COVID-19 through a PCR test. A total of 79 studies were reviewed for data on asymptomatic spread, encompassing 6,616 individuals. Of these, just 20 percent (1,287 individuals) remained asymptomatic during follow-up, meaning that four out of five individuals ultimately showed symptoms of the virus.

The study distinguished between pre-symptomatic individuals, those who show no symptoms at the time of a positive test, and asymptomatic individuals, those who never show symptoms. It theorized that many pre-symptomatic individuals may be “wrongly classified” as asymptomatic when in reality they simply develop symptoms later on. Overall, the study concludes that the majority of those who contract COVID-19 will have symptoms.

The authors note that the data has limitations, including that the studies may have “selection bias” — meaning that the sample isn’t reflective of the population. In an interview with U.S. News and World Report, Dr. Len Horovitz, a pulmonologist at Lenox Hill in New York City, said that the studies may have missed, for example, individuals who — without any signs of the virus — didn’t get a test. “If you're under-testing people, you're not going to uncover the asymptomatic people," said Horovitz.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/most-pe ... 47301.html

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

Couple things real quick. The study went through a lot of effort and I haven't dissected it all (and even if I did I wouldn't understand a lot of it) but even from the yahoo article this can't be ignored.

Dr. Len Horovitz, a pulmonologist at Lenox Hill in New York City, said that the studies may have missed, for example, individuals who — without any signs of the virus — didn’t get a test. “If you're under-testing people, you're not going to uncover the asymptomatic people," said Horovitz.

Of the 7 studies they included in the data where a defined population was tested, the number of asymptomatic jumped to 31%.

I can't find how they define symptoms. It may sound like semantics, but if someone tests positive, never gets sick, stays in and gets wasted one night then has diarrhea and a headache the next day, does that count as a symptom? That may be extreme, but my point is that symptoms are at this point inclusive of almost anything (headache, fever, GI issues, difficulty breathing, fatigue, loss of taste/smell, coughing, sneezing, blinking, etc). The reporting can be very subjective.

[Famous Mortimer]

i admittedly get "annoyed"/eyeroll at the "that's now how we do things up here in the dakota's, we're just hard working people who go about our day" "real america" talk. i'm sure i'm annoying too though. whatever, hopefully i'll be dead before the country truly is.

Real America is more like New York (statehood granted 1776) than it is the Dakotas (statehood granted 1889).