Yadi Redux

Popeye_Card · Post by **Popeye_Card** » March 4 07, 12:44 pm

skmsw wrote: Hard as it is for Cards fans to believe, Ausmus and Matheny control the running game similarly (give or take) to Yadi -- but prevent wild pitches and passed balls much better. Yadi is an average catcher defensively, with a great arm.

Molina has allowed 1 stolen base every 39 innings in his career. He's caught one every 38. He's allowed a passed ball every 123 innings.

Since 2004, Ausmus has allowed 1 stolen base every 18 innings. He's caught one every 51. He's allowed a passed ball every 401 innings.

Since 2004, Matheny has allowed 1 stolen base every 19 innings. He's caught one every 38. He's allwed a passed ball every 311 innings.

Adjusted for 1000 innings a year, Molina would allow approximately 34 extra bases to runners via steals and passed balls (assuming only 1 runner on). He'd generate 26 extra outs. Ausmus would allow 58 extra bases to runners, and generate 20 extra outs. Matheny would allow 56 extra bases and generage 26 extra outs.

Not considering wild pitches, which one is the best defensive asset?

--P--

Post by **Michael** » March 4 07, 12:44 pm

Let's keep it friendly everyone.

Balltilyafall4 · Post by **Balltilyafall4** » March 4 07, 12:49 pm

2006 Defensive Statistics

Molina - 37 SB - 29 CS CS % .439 PB - 1

Ausmus - 60 SB - 17 CS CS % .221 PB - 7

2005 Defensive Statistics

Molina 14 SB - 25 CS CS % .641 PB - 8

Ausmus 39 SB - 18 CS CS % .316 PB - 5

Matheny 63 SB - 39 CS CS % .382 PB - 4

They SIMILARLY control the running game!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

skmsw · Post by **skmsw** » March 4 07, 12:52 pm

Balltilyafall4 wrote:
skmsw wrote:
Not saying theres a bias is ridiculous
I'm not saying there is not ANY bias in ANY award voting, smart fella -- I'm saying that Yadi did not lose "his" gold glove award because voters were biased against his craptacular offensive year. We Cards fans tend to over-rate Yadi's defense. So far, he is an average catcher with a great arm and no bat, and in my opinion name recognition is NOT the reason why he failed to obtain a gold glove.
Then we have different opinions..

So "smart fella"...what was the reason Adam Everett lost the gold glove when all of those fancy projections and stats said he was the best defensive player IN THE GAME last year?

There are more things that should be taken into consideration then how you block the plate which is obviously what you're referring to when you say he's an avg. catcher.

And if you think Matheny controlled the running game similarly to Yadi in the last two years you are NUTS

I'm sorry if, while calling my opinions "ridiculous" and "nuts," you somehow still took it personal when I refered to you as "smart fella." I apologize for being slightly less rude and dismissive than you were.

Balltilyafall4 · Post by **Balltilyafall4** » March 4 07, 12:54 pm

skmsw wrote:
Balltilyafall4 wrote:
skmsw wrote:
Not saying theres a bias is ridiculous
I'm not saying there is not ANY bias in ANY award voting, smart fella -- I'm saying that Yadi did not lose "his" gold glove award because voters were biased against his craptacular offensive year. We Cards fans tend to over-rate Yadi's defense. So far, he is an average catcher with a great arm and no bat, and in my opinion name recognition is NOT the reason why he failed to obtain a gold glove.
Then we have different opinions..

So "smart fella"...what was the reason Adam Everett lost the gold glove when all of those fancy projections and stats said he was the best

defensive player IN THE GAME last year?

There are more things that should be taken into consideration then how you block the plate which is obviously what you're referring to when you say he's an avg. catcher.

And if you think Matheny controlled the running game similarly to Yadi in the last two years you are NUTS
I'm sorry if, while calling my opinions "ridiculous" and "nuts," you somehow still took it personal when I refered to you as "smart fella." I apologize for being slightly less rude and dismissive than you were.

Bottom line..the stats prove that if you think Ausmus and Matheny have been "similar" to Yadi in controlling the running game then your opinion is "nuts"

Period

Popeye_Card · Post by **Popeye_Card** » March 4 07, 12:55 pm

Balltilyafall4 wrote:2006 Defensive Statistics

Molina - 37 SB - 29 CS CS % .439 PB - 1

Ausmus - 60 SB - 17 CS CS % .221 PB - 7

2005 Defensive Statistics

Molina 14 SB - 25 CS CS % .641 PB - 8

Ausmus 39 SB - 18 CS CS % .316 PB - 5

Matheny 63 SB - 39 CS CS % .382 PB - 4

They SIMILARLY control the running game!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

FYI, you swapped Molina and Ausmus' PB numbers for 2006. Yadi had 7, Ausmus had 1.

But the point stands that Yadi's extra arm strength outweighs whatever PB/WP deficiencies he may have just in terms of frequency of occurance. More runners take extra bases via the stolen base than a wild pitch or passed ball.

--P--

Balltilyafall4 · Post by **Balltilyafall4** » March 4 07, 12:57 pm

Popeye_Card wrote:
Balltilyafall4 wrote:2006 Defensive Statistics

Molina - 37 SB - 29 CS CS % .439 PB - 1

Ausmus - 60 SB - 17 CS CS % .221 PB - 7

2005 Defensive Statistics

Molina 14 SB - 25 CS CS % .641 PB - 8

Ausmus 39 SB - 18 CS CS % .316 PB - 5

Matheny 63 SB - 39 CS CS % .382 PB - 4

They SIMILARLY control the running game!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
FYI, you swapped Molina and Ausmus' PB numbers for 2006. Yadi had 7, Ausmus had 1.

But the point stands that Yadi's extra arm strength outweighs whatever PB/WP deficiencies he may have just in terms of frequency of occurance. More runners take extra bases via the stolen base than a wild pitch or passed ball.

--P--

Right, right...that was inadverdent...my apologies..

I threw that in there to prove that Steve was right in saying that Ausmus and Matheny do, in fact, block the plate better...which I never disputed..

But my personal opinion is that Molina's advantage in controlling the running game over the course of a season outweights the 6 extra PB's he has a year...and your analysis proved that fact correct..

Post by **Michael** » March 4 07, 12:58 pm

Balltilyafall4 wrote:
skmsw wrote:
Balltilyafall4 wrote:
skmsw wrote:
Not saying theres a bias is ridiculous
I'm not saying there is not ANY bias in ANY award voting, smart fella -- I'm saying that Yadi did not lose "his" gold glove award because voters were biased against his craptacular offensive year. We Cards fans tend to over-rate Yadi's defense. So far, he is an average catcher with a great arm and no bat, and in my opinion name recognition is NOT the reason why he failed to obtain a gold glove.
Then we have different opinions..

So "smart fella"...what was the reason Adam Everett lost the gold glove when all of those fancy projections and stats said he was the best

defensive player IN THE GAME last year?

There are more things that should be taken into consideration then how you block the plate which is obviously what you're referring to when you say he's an avg. catcher.

And if you think Matheny controlled the running game similarly to Yadi in the last two years you are NUTS
I'm sorry if, while calling my opinions "ridiculous" and "nuts," you somehow still took it personal when I refered to you as "smart fella." I apologize for being slightly less rude and dismissive than you were.
Bottom line..the stats prove that if you think Ausmus and Matheny have been "similar" to Yadi in controlling the running game then your opinion is "nuts"

Period

Keep it friendly. Name calling is inappropriate.

skmsw · Post by **skmsw** » March 4 07, 1:00 pm

Not considering wild pitches, which one is the best defensive asset?

You assume that the catcher gets 100% of the credit for controlling the running game, and this is not true or even close to true. So the numbers you've come up with are not accurate.

Whether runners go or not, and whether they make it, obviously has a lot to do with the catcher's reputation and is ability to throw runners out. But it also depends on game situation, pitcher tendencies, holding runners on, proficiency of the other defensive players, etc etc etc. Controlling for all of this stuff, Yadi works up to being the best in the league -- but the best and worst are not particularly far apart, and Yadi is worth probably 3 to 5 more runs per year than Ausmus or Matheny.

Popeye_Card · Post by **Popeye_Card** » March 4 07, 1:17 pm

skmsw wrote:
Not considering wild pitches, which one is the best defensive asset?
You assume that the catcher gets 100% of the credit for controlling the running game, and this is not true or even close to true. So the numbers you've come up with are not accurate.

Whether runners go or not, and whether they make it, obviously has a lot to do with the catcher's reputation and is ability to throw runners out. But it also depends on game situation, pitcher tendencies, holding runners on, proficiency of the other defensive players, etc etc etc. Controlling for all of this stuff, Yadi works up to being the best in the league -- but the best and worst are not particularly far apart, and Yadi is worth probably 3 to 5 more runs per year than Ausmus or Matheny.

You are assuming that the catcher gets 100% of the blame for passed balls with your assertation though. What if the signs get crossed up?

Matheny allowed more stolen bases with a very similar Cardinal staff that Molina has inherited. Ausmus catches a fastball-heavy staff, which you would think can control the running game well. If there was a slight difference between the numbers, I'd chalk it up to random variation. But Yadi's SB allowed numbers are nearly twice as good as the other guys.

If they all hit about the same (which they do), I'd easily take Yadi and his arm over the other guys and their slightly-better ball blocking skills.

--P--