Has there ever been a more hollow .292?

skmsw · Post by **skmsw** » May 20 07, 8:42 pm

Kyle wrote:
GatewaySnayke wrote:The idea that catchers shouldn't have to hit is absurd in every way possible.
I don't really agree with that.

This is the reason we have stats like VORP, because hitting in relation to your position is an important thing that is often overlooked.

Depends on what you believe about how catchers contribute to team success.

Personally, I believe that catchers do make a difference -- BUT that almost all catchers have similar abilities to "work with pitchers," "call the game," "set the pace," etc etc etc.

I do believe that there is variability among catchers indefensive ability, but I believe that we greatly over-estimate it. I think that a great defensive catcher can prevent 5-10 runs by catching more stealers than average; another 8-12 runs by discouraging attempts; and another 5-10 runs by preventing passed balls and wild pitches. And we know from the evidence that most catchers who are good at the first two are NOT good at the last one, and vice versa. Yadi is no exception to this.

So, if all catchers have ABOUT ROUGHLY the same "intangibles," and then contribute one to two wins with defensive skills, is that really worth how much hitting we sacrifice?

Balltilyafall4 · Post by **Balltilyafall4** » May 20 07, 8:48 pm

GatewaySnayke wrote:Ball, the comment about Molina's game-calling was not directed at you. My apologies if it seemed that way.

And sure, if a guy is cheap like Molina is, it isn't so bad.

But I think a lot of people who are getting defensive about Molina are forgetting that this isn't a bash Molina thread. As haltz said, it's just showing how he arrived at his numbers and they seem to be showing that his .292 is built on a lot of smoke and mirrors.

That's fair GS.....but wouldn't you rather him hitting .292 then his usually .250-.260?

IMO just seems to be a silly thing to point out considering the struggles of the rest of the garbage we have on the team right now...which is probably why you're getting a defense from people....it'd be a lot easier to look at Yadi's .292 and call it hollow if Rolen was at .290-.300, Pujols was at .315-.320...etc...

Post by **Bo Hart** » May 20 07, 8:50 pm

Balltilyafall4 wrote:IMO just seems to be a silly thing to point out considering the struggles of the rest of the garbage we have on the team right now...which is probably why you're getting a defense from people....it'd be a lot easier to look at Yadi's .292 and call it hollow if Rolen was at .290-.300, Pujols was at .315-.320...etc...

And I think it is equally as silly to say that because the rest of the team isn't producing, Yadi should get a free pass.

If we were 25 - 13 right now and Yadi was hitting .292 and people were talking about him turning the corner, I'm sure numerous "Yantagonists" would still be humming a very similar tune.

GatewaySnayke · Post by **GatewaySnayke** » May 20 07, 8:50 pm

Sure I'm taking it. I'm downright thrilled with Molina right now with the caveat that I'm almost certain he's going to regress and with it will go his OBP/SLG. That's what is most important here.

Post by **Michael** » May 20 07, 8:52 pm

Balltilyafall4 wrote:IMO just seems to be a silly thing to point out considering the struggles of the rest of the garbage we have on the team right now...

This is a Cardinals baseball discussion forum.

Balltilyafall4 · Post by **Balltilyafall4** » May 20 07, 8:53 pm

Kyle wrote:
Balltilyafall4 wrote:IMO just seems to be a silly thing to point out considering the struggles of the rest of the garbage we have on the team right now...which is probably why you're getting a defense from people....it'd be a lot easier to look at Yadi's .292 and call it hollow if Rolen was at .290-.300, Pujols was at .315-.320...etc...
And I think it is equally as silly to say that because the rest of the team isn't producing, Yadi should get a free pass.

If we were 25 - 13 right now and Yadi was hitting .292 and people were talking about him turning the corner, I'm sure numerous "Yantagonists" would be humming a very similar tune.

A free pass!?!?!

lol...why should he be attacked when he's leading the damn team in hitting?

We're going after a guy who his hitting 30 points (or more) above his career avg. and letting the guys that suck get free passes..

That comment made absolutly no sense...we're supposed to give Molina a free pass cause he's hitting for a better average right now then he has his entire career?

Unreal..

skmsw · Post by **skmsw** » May 20 07, 8:54 pm

Hello, human fly here!

Anyhow, I think Snayke's thread title was a little misleading. Of course we're all glad that Yadi's hitting better. No bashing is intended; more to the point, we're baseball fans looking at the performaces and wondering what to expect next.

It's really risky to decide we can tell that he is improving based on about 100 AB. We had some 425 AB last year that were pretty terrible, and even if we get that many this year that are pretty good, we're still within the range of expected performance for a player whose true talent is about 650.

Balltilyafall4 · Post by **Balltilyafall4** » May 20 07, 8:55 pm

Michael wrote:
Balltilyafall4 wrote:IMO just seems to be a silly thing to point out considering the struggles of the rest of the garbage we have on the team right now...

This is a Cardinals baseball discussion forum.

And I'm saying that there are far better averages and struggles to jump on then a hollow .292 from ur leading hitter..

Edmonds..

Rolen...

Eckstein...

Pujols...

Kennedy...

Should I go on??

Post by **Bo Hart** » May 20 07, 8:56 pm

Balltilyafall4 wrote:
Kyle wrote:
Balltilyafall4 wrote:IMO just seems to be a silly thing to point out considering the struggles of the rest of the garbage we have on the team right now...which is probably why you're getting a defense from people....it'd be a lot easier to look at Yadi's .292 and call it hollow if Rolen was at .290-.300, Pujols was at .315-.320...etc...
And I think it is equally as silly to say that because the rest of the team isn't producing, Yadi should get a free pass.

If we were 25 - 13 right now and Yadi was hitting .292 and people were talking about him turning the corner, I'm sure numerous "Yantagonists" would be humming a very similar tune.
A free pass!?!?!

lol...why should he be attacked when he's leading the damn team in hitting?

We're going after a guy who his hitting 30 points (or more) above his career avg. and letting the guys that suck get free passes..

That comment made absolutly no sense...we're supposed to give Molina a free pass cause he's hitting for a better average right now then he has his entire career?

Unreal..

Because his OPS -- which has far, far more correlation to run scoring then batting average -- still sucks.

I'm not arguing about who is currently helping this team win the most. I'm arguing whether or not Yadi has turned the corner or not. Nothing I've seen has suggested that he has.

lazypenguin · Post by **lazypenguin** » May 20 07, 8:57 pm

My main point is, why point out Yadi's flaws when he has the highest average on the team, his OBS/OPS/SLG is higher than anyone outside of Pujols, Duncan, and Spiezio. I think we should be thanking him for actually producing and worrying about the team's other flaws. Yadi isn't hurting us in the least bit. It seems a bit unfair to talk bad about him at this point.