Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

[UK]

Sacrificing one's life for this country whether it be as a policeman, firefighter, veteran, etc. is what honor should be about. The actions of our gov't by going to war in a war we should not have fought does not diminish those sacrifices nor the honor of those fighting in those wars.

[G. Keenan]

Sacrificing one's life for this country whether it be as a policeman, firefighter, veteran, etc. is what honor should be about. The actions of our gov't by going to war in a war we should not have fought does not diminish those sacrifices nor the honor of those fighting in those wars.

Good answer. I agree with the sentiment.

[PujolJunkie]

Sacrificing one's life for this country whether it be as a policeman, firefighter, veteran, etc. is what honor should be about. The actions of our gov't by going to war in a war we should not have fought does not diminish those sacrifices nor the honor of those fighting in those wars.

Indeed. However; heroism may be a fantastic personal trait, but it also isn't a critical criteria for the presidency. And some are heroic in other manners.

[ghostrunner]

Could be an interesting debate. How aggressive will McCain be?

McCain calls Obama a liar, faults his Chicago ties

I have lost any respect I ever had for John McCain. He speaks endlessly of the importance of honor while engaging in some of the most undignified campaigning I can recall. I refuse to believe that he thinks Sarah Palin would be a capable president. Hence, his nomination of her for VP represents the height of cynicism and zero sum politics.

At what point does honor run out?

His honor as a veteran will always be there, his honor as a campaigning politician doesn't exist anymore.

At the risk of blowing the forum up I want to ask a question about his honor in Vietnam.

What is honor? Can one achieve it in the process of committing an immoral act? Certainly one can be brave, valiant, loyal. The Vietnam war was profoundly immoral. I don't mean to diminish the bravery and sacrifice of the men and women who fought and died there. They are all braver people than I. Perhaps they can have honor as individuals, but as a country, there is no honor in what America did in Vietnam. It is and should be a national shame.

That's a little strong. At the time there was a lot to be afraid of from the Communist countries. Nearly all of them were extremely oppressive, and Kennedy (among others) felt a stand had to be made. People fled into South Vietnam from North Vietnam because they didn't want to live under that oppression. Certainly there's some nobility in defending those people. You can argue about whether or not it was worth sending troops over, and how we eventually carried out the war. I'd have problems with both. But I don't agree that there wasn't anything good about what we did.

[cpebbles]

Sacrificing one's life for this country whether it be as a policeman, firefighter, veteran, etc. is what honor should be about. The actions of our gov't by going to war in a war we should not have fought does not diminish those sacrifices nor the honor of those fighting in those wars.

Tell it to McCain and Palin, who are pushing the notion that those who have died in Iraq will not have sacrificed for a worthy cause unless some unspoken conditions of victory are attained.

[G. Keenan]

Sacrificing one's life for this country whether it be as a policeman, firefighter, veteran, etc. is what honor should be about. The actions of our gov't by going to war in a war we should not have fought does not diminish those sacrifices nor the honor of those fighting in those wars.

Tell it to McCain and Palin, who are pushing the notion that those who have died in Iraq will not have sacrificed for a worthy cause unless some unspoken conditions of victory are attained.

Seriously. McCain keeps going on about "bringing the troops home with honor," as if that is synonymous with victory. Nevermind that they shouldn't be there in the first place.

That's a little strong. At the time there was a lot to be afraid of from the Communist countries. Nearly all of them were extremely oppressive, and Kennedy (among others) felt a stand had to be made. People fled into South Vietnam from North Vietnam because they didn't want to live under that oppression. Certainly there's some nobility in defending those people. You can argue about whether or not it was worth sending troops over, and how we eventually carried out the war. I'd have problems with both. But I don't agree that there wasn't anything good about what we did.

I really don't think that's accurate. South Vietnam was only created to be a temporary state after the 1954 Geneva conference. Diem refused to hold elections because the communists would likely win and set out on a systematic campaign of imprisonment, torture, and execution of south Vietnamese communists. The massive influx of north Vietnamese into the south was largely the result of a CIA propaganda campaign to get religious minorities, namely Christians, in an attempt to increase anti-communist sentiment in the south. Then Diem just went ahead and rigged the elections anyway.

What was really just a long standing war for Vietnamese independence against foreign occupation the US turned into a proxy war with Russia and China. We then sent a whole bunch of well-meaning volunteers and draftees into a hell hole of a war they had no chance of winning.

As a matter of national policy there was absolutely nothing good about what we did. Laos and Cambodia went communist anyway (where were we on the Khmer Rouge?) and Vietnam still is communist. Somehow the world didn't fall apart. It has to be one of the most pointless wars ever fought.

The thing that scares me most about John McCain is that he, to this day, thinks Vietnam was a war worth fighting. After decades of evidence to the contrary, and the benefit of hindsight, what does that say about his judgment?

[PujolJunkie]

Arguably the best polling day for Barack Obama since the campaign started.

[PujolJunkie]

538 odds based by percentages and where Obama would be should he win:

Kerry States 72% (252 EV) Plus
Iowa 96% (259)
New Mexico 90% (264)
Colorado 85% (273)
Virginia 81% (286)
Florida 73% (313)
Ohio 70% (333)
Nevada 70% (338)
North Carolina 62% (353)
Missouri 55% (364)

CLINTON 1992 WIN (370EV)

Indiana 54% (375)

OFFICIAL BLOWOUT (375 EV);CLINTON 1996 WIN (379 EV)

West Virginia 31% (380)
NE Omaha District 26% (381)
Montana 22% (384)
North Dakota 20% (387)
NE East District 16% (388)
Georgia 15% (403)
Arkansas 13% (409)
Lousiana 11% (418)

BUSH 1988 WIN (426 EV)

Texas 10% (452)
South Dakota 10% (455)
Mississippi 9% (461)
Arizona 7% (471)
South Carolina 6% (479)
Kentucky 6% (487)

REAGAN 1980 WIN (489 EV)

Kansas 5% (493)
Alaska 4% (496)
Tennessee 4% (507)
Nebraska 3% (509)
Alabama 2% (518)
Wyoming 1% (521)
Idaho 1% (525)

REAGAN 1984 WIN (525 EV)

Oklahoma 1% (532)
Utah 0% (537)
NE West District 0% (538)

Looks a lot like Clinton 92.

[PujolJunkie]

[/youtube]

People scream "TERRORIST!" and "KILL HIM!" and McCain says NOTHING.

[InvincibleCakeEater]

I support Obama, but I didn't hear either one of those things said.