Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

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Michael
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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by Michael »

Hungary Jack wrote:In the video, Obama says he won't raise taxes on "revenues" below $250k. I am sure he must have meant income/profits below $250k, right?
Yes, he goofed. He should have said earnings.

I think he did a masterful job with that guy. Can you imagine Palin giving an answer with that kind of detail?

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by cardsfansince82 »

GatewaySnayke wrote:Roger and Pop got it right -- once the marriage of laissez-faire capitalism wedded the culture crowd, Republicans became a force. And now Americans who are more pragmatic are being turned off.

The GOP looks like it is headed for a split. There were will be the party of hardcore wingers and then there will be a more moderate party. Eventually, the party of George W. Bush and Karl Rove will dissipate everywhere but places like Oklahoma, Kansas, Alabama, Mississippi, etc. No "Contract With America" is going to save the GOP this time.
It was just a short time ago when the Democrats couldn't prevent GWB from getting re-elected and people pronounced their party done. The Republicans had an almost impossible task of overcoming the backlash toward the Bush administration. It's simply a matter of time distancing them from Bush in people's minds and putting up a better ticket. Too many people believe in the basic stances of the party on certain issues and too many of the insiders have been schooled by Rove for much to change, imo.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by G. Keenan »

Frontline just aired its "Choice 2008" episode profiling McCain and Obama. Excellent stuff, including a lot of background about Obama's early days in politics going back to his run for president of the Harvard Law Review. Very revealing, in a good way.

McCain also comes across as someone that would make a great president. It's clear though that he's had to make deals with his personal devils to make it as far as he has. It made me take solace in the idea that no matter who wins we're going to have a much different administration than the past 8 years.

Still, Sarah Palin's presence on the ticket continues to terrify me. And not because I don't agree with her social beliefs, but because she is a complete idiot.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by Jocephus »

G. Keenan wrote: Still, Sarah Palin's presence on the ticket continues to terrify me. And not because I don't agree with her social beliefs, but because she is a complete idiot.
what if you'djust gotten back from your "asia trip" and found out that she was the VP candidate?

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by Freed Roger »

Michael wrote:
Hungary Jack wrote:In the video, Obama says he won't raise taxes on "revenues" below $250k. I am sure he must have meant income/profits below $250k, right?
Yes, he goofed. He should have said earnings.

I think he did a masterful job with that guy. Can you imagine Palin giving an answer with that kind of detail?
I give his answer a B - with extra credit for effort.

This stuff gets fricken complicated. A lot of times people throw up their hands and say "lets do a flat tax". I like how Obama put down this grandiose notion.

several years ago I was at a CPA tax seminar, and Jim Talent (then a MO congressman) gave a small talk on tax developments in Wash DC along with QnA . It was trainwreck, the people in the audience knew more about the topic than Talent. Some of the new tax laws Talent was braggin on (remember the Contract with America?) had problems/unintended consequences that the audience knew of, but he didn't.

Point is - president can't be expected to be experts on all the topics (defense, healthcare, taxation, environment, housing, etc). But they need to have a basic working knowledge of it all, as well as decent value system, good judgement and advisors etc. In other words - leadership. IMO Obama has demonstrated this - with the video clip being another example.

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G. Keenan
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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by G. Keenan »

Jocephus wrote:
G. Keenan wrote: Still, Sarah Palin's presence on the ticket continues to terrify me. And not because I don't agree with her social beliefs, but because she is a complete idiot.
what if you'djust gotten back from your "asia trip" and found out that she was the VP candidate?
Probably turn around and leave again.

I'll go on record now. If the day comes where Sarah Palin becomes president, I'm out.

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clement
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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by clement »

I like Richard Lewis but that clip is a cluster-[expletive] rant. If that's the level of discourse seen on MSNBC then the rumors of it being the left's version of FoxNews seem to be true.

A little more historical perspective on the rise of the evangelicals-in-politics movement. Obviously Roe v. Wade was a driving factor in getting very conservative Christians more engaged in the political process. The Roe v Wade decision happened in 1973, during the Nixon administration. It came on the heels of the civil rights movement, several other landmark decisions by the Supreme Court, the Vietnam War and the ainti-war protest movement, and in the context of the Cold War. Christians, and in particular, evangelical Protestant Christians didn't really feel they had an organized political voice. There was a Christian right per se, but it was more of a Catholic-run movement.

Then on the heels of Roe v. Wade and the end of the US involvement in the painful Vietnam War, you had Nixon's Watergate scandal and impending impeachment, which leads to his eventual resignation. This put a relative unknown in the presidencey in 1974, Gerald Ford (Ford had been appointed to the VP position after Nixon's VP Spiro Agnew had been forced to resign under a scandal of his own). Ford was pro-ERA, he was rather soft on the Cold War and Vietnam, and even though he supported the rights of states to decide the abortion issue, his wife Betty went on TV and hailed the Roe v. Wade decision as a landmark ruling and she was a strong advocate for the "women's lib" movement (Gerald Ford himself later declared that he was pro-choice).

Fast-forward to the 1976 presidential campaign beteween Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter. Ford had fought a fiercely contested battle for the Republican nomination, challenged by Ronald Reagan. Although Reagan didn't run on social issues, he did position himself as the true conservative alternative to Ford, who was largely viewed as a moderate. Ford narrowly escaped the Republican convention with the nomination, but he was battered by it.

In the general campaign, hawks in the conservative base were unenthusiastic about Ford. Evangelical Christians were reeling from the Roe v. Wade decision and looking to get more organized politically. And Jimmy Carter, the Baptist Democrat from the South openly spoke about his religion and faith along the campaign trail. He talked of how religion could help us heal the wounds left by the social turmoil of the prior decade. And evangelical Christians, with little organization and nowhere else to go, flocked to Jimmy Carter. If you look at the electoral map of Carter's victory, he swept the Deep South. He won nothing in the West and split the states with Ford in the Northeast. Just as an exaple, Carter took Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, and Missouri, Ford took California, Illinois, Washington, and Vermont.

It didn't take long after Carter took office that those Christian evangelicals who supported him didn't get the guy they were hoping for. Carter was (and still is) a very outspoken Christian, but he is a different kind of Christian than what the most conservative evangelicals were looking for. Instead of emphasizing issues like abortion, homosexuality, censorship, and the traditional family with a traditional role for women, Carter channelled his Christian beliefs into things like tolerance, charity, and reconciliation.

So it was during the Carter administation, which was plagued by many other problems, not the least of which was the energy crisis and then the hostage crisis in Iran, that the Moral Majority was founded by Jerry Falwell and others. This was the beginning of the very organized political movement by Evangelical Christians that has evolved to what we see today. Falwell and his supporters abandoned Carter and threw their weight behind Reagan in 1980, helping carry him to easy victory. They remained loyal to Reagan through two terms, and were less enthusiastic about his successor Bush. Bush won an easy election in 1988, but when challenged in 1992 by Clinton, and trailing in the polls, he allowed his convention to be hijacked by people like Pat Buchanan, who gave a very controversial speech that preaching about the "culture wars". This kind of rhetoric from Bush's convention fired up the base, but were largely viewed unfavorably by moderates and independents. Clinton won, and Christian conservatives had their whipping boy for the next 8 years, until W ran for president in 2000, reached out very overtly to evangelicals probably even more unabashedly than Reagan had, and managed to win 2 very close elections with their broad support.

The poly sci geeks on the board can add to or correct any or all of the above which was pieced together by my fuzzy memory and with the help of a few google and wiki searches. :D

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clement
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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by clement »

G. Keenan wrote:If the day comes where Sarah Palin becomes president, I'm out.
Mark my words. You heard it here first. Sarah Palin's national political career is OVER. She will finish out her term in Alaska, then she will either run for re-election, or take a job as an analyst on Fox News Channel. She might then run for president in 2012 but will not make it past New Hampshire, and she will finish out her career on TV as a Fox News contributor.

edit: now if somehow McCain comes back to win the election, all bets are off.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by ghostrunner »

Jocephus wrote:
Obama Explains His Tax Cut Plans To Plumbing Business Owner
[/youtube]
I can't remember a President or candidate in recent memory who would have been able AND willing to give that answer. It reminds me of Clinton, only a lot more candid and detailed than anything he would have said.

I'll be "early voting" hopefully sometime this week. That reminds me, I have a rant to post.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by cpebbles »

MSNBC is transparently left. Chris Matthews is the closest thing they've got to an impartial major face on the network, and that says something. Olbermann is pretty open about being the liberal counterpart to Bill O'Reilly. The big difference is that Olbermann does not invite people he disagrees with to scream at them and he doesn't put up a ridiculous pretext as an independent.

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