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Phyrkrakr wrote:What I want to know is how Ron Santo gets 57 votes and Kenny Boyer only gets 9.

Partially because Santo has an unofficial group of lobbyists trying to get him in.

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:

Phyrkrakr wrote:What I want to know is how Ron Santo gets 57 votes and Kenny Boyer only gets 9. They weren't that far apart in ability, and Boyer won a championship. AVG, SLG, OBP are all within a few points of each other for their careers. They both had 5 Gold Gloves, Boyer had one more All Star appearance, and Santo had 60 more HR.

The HR difference isn't enough to make that much of a difference, in my opinion.

Using a popular method from the Greatest player tourney....

Santo: 115.1 WARP, 13.6 career high, 6 seasons (consecutively too) over 10.0
Boyer: 95.9 WARP, 10.5 career high, 2 seasons over 10.0

Santo's prime was significantly better.

Significantly better might be a bit of a stretch.

Using WARP3 (most would agree it's a better metric):
Santo: 116.7 WARP3, 13.6 peak, 6 seasons over 10
Boyer: 102.0 WARP3 (in 200 less games), 11.2 peak, 5 season over 10 (and one 9.9 season)

Santo certainly had better peaks, and his best years were in a nice tight bunch (for whatever that's worth). But they seem to match up favorably, especially considering the 200 game difference.

Some other stats:
Santo: .294 EQA, 125 OPS+, 5.95 RC/27
Boyer: .284 EQA, 116 OPS+, 5.78 RC/27

Santo still tops Boyer, but the gap really isn't that big. Certainly not big enough to explain a 48 vote difference... unless you factor in Santo's broadcasting career.

maddash wrote:unless you factor in Santo's broadcasting career.

If you factor in Santo's broadcasting career, the vote should be this lopsided...with Boyer in the lead.

redbirdjazzz wrote:

maddash wrote:unless you factor in Santo's broadcasting career.

If you factor in Santo's broadcasting career, the vote should be this lopsided...with Boyer in the lead.

Hey, Santo is pretty entertaining... especially to us Cardinal fans. Listening to him throw a fit every time a Cub player blows a play is good fun.

Santo belongs.

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In short, if Santo is ranked with the current third basemen in the HOF, he would be right in the middle of the pack. That makes him look like a HOFer to me.

If you're a fan of Win Shares, Santo's 324 would rank him sixth behind Schmidt, Brett, Matthews,Boggs, and Robinson.

I think it's quite obvious that Santo should be in the HOF. I just don't see how the voters (both the BBWAA and now the VC) don't see that.

Santo wasn't the kind of guy that, throughout his career, was talked about as a future hall of famer. I know I never considered him hall of fame material. But if you look at his numbers, there's a pretty darn good case.

I don't have a problem with Santo getting in. But I do have a problem with him getting in before Dick Allen.

To be morbid, if Santo had dropped dead two weeks ago he'd have been elected overwhelmingly, which is what ticks me off about this whole thing.

BTW, Bill Mazeroski should be forcibly ejected from the Hall of Fame.

maddash wrote:

redbirdjazzz wrote:

maddash wrote:unless you factor in Santo's broadcasting career.

If you factor in Santo's broadcasting career, the vote should be this lopsided...with Boyer in the lead.

Hey, Santo is pretty entertaining... especially to us Cardinal fans. Listening to him throw a fit every time a Cub player blows a play is good fun.

Some of us in Cards-Cubs country have been known to base a drinking game on Santo.

Every time Santo grunts, groans, bellows "Awww GEEEEZ!!", etc. You take a drink. I remember a bases loaded 2B by Albert against the Cubbies a couple years ago that could have induced alcohol poisoning by itself.

thrill wrote:What I think is most important is that the HOF voters don't understand how much he means to millions of Cubs fans.

Think about it Cards fans: If Mike Shannon not only had the stats to merit induction, but also continued to broadcast Cardinals baseball with a genuine passion all the while battling diabetes and having two legs amputated, wouldn't you be outraged?

Think of how much we all love the moon man and how much that would tick us off.

Now realize that Santo is more revered to Cub's fans than Mike is to us.

One, Santo sucks as a broadcaster. Two, he's got no rings. I'm not saying Shannon should be in the Hall, but either should Santo.

robbotis wrote: One, Santo sucks as a broadcaster

Objectively so does Shannon, yet he is beloved by us fans. Who cares.

robbotis wrote: Two, he's got no rings. I'm not saying Shannon should be in the Hall, but either should Santo.

So Ted Williams doesn't deserve it? Why does a team's failures count against a player's success? One guy can't will his team to a championship in baseball.