Update: HOLLIDAY A CARD 7yr/120 million, p178

[StL]

I suppose you could argue that Holliday is not the reason we lost game 2 but you certainly can't deny that his error is the reason we didn't win game 2.

Thats right! Now we're gettin somewhere! Now we're placing the blame for the loss where it belongs!

[Richie Allen]

I suppose you could argue that Holliday is not the reason we lost game 2 but you certainly can't deny that his error is the reason we didn't win game 2.

Thats right! Now we're gettin somewhere! Now we're placing the blame for the loss where it belongs!

Perhaps. As soon as some of you come to grips and admit that his error is the reason we didn't fly home tied 1-1.

[StL]

LOL.
Cards were still winning after his error. The Cards ended up losing that game. His error therefore by definition can ONLY be part of the reason they didnt fly home 1-1.

Hey I dont like it any more than you do.

LOL and what do you mean "as soon as." You've already made it clear. You've already said it. Holliday wasnt the reason they lost that game. He was the reason they didnt win it the first chance at winning it they had though, I'll give you that.

[Richie Allen]

LOL.
Cards were still winning after his error. The Cards ended up losing that game. His error therefore by definition ONLY be part of the reason they didnt fly home 1-1.

Hey I dont like it any more than you do.

But there seems to be a blind spot for you and others that can't seem to see that his catching that ball ends the game. Franklin, as bad as he was the last few weeks, couldn't have possibly blown it at that point. Thus, all runs were considered unearned, despite his pitiful pitching.

[Richie Allen]

LOL and what do you mean "as soon as." You've already made it clear. You've already said it. Holliday wasnt the reason they lost that game. He was the reason they didnt win it the first chance at winning it they had though, I'll give you that.

You seem more interested in trying to win an argument by either twisting words or simply putting other words in my mouth. I never said Holliday was the reason we lost game 2. I said his error cost us the win. I also never said he wasn't the reason they lost game 2. I said, you could argue that if you wanted to be stubborn. Which you obviously are. WTF does it matter if he's the reason we didn't win or not the reason we lost. The bottom line is he [expletive] up and it cost us game two of the NLDS. Quit making excuses for him.

[StL]

LOL.
Cards were still winning after his error. The Cards ended up losing that game. His error therefore by definition ONLY be part of the reason they didnt fly home 1-1.

Hey I dont like it any more than you do.

But there seems to be a blind spot for you and others that can't seem to see that his catching that ball ends the game. Franklin, as bad as he was the last few weeks, couldn't have possibly blown it at that point. Thus, all runs were considered unearned, despite his pitiful pitching.

Well I cant speak for "others." If someone says his error doesnt matter because we would have lost anyway, that is not my logic, even though in the big picture, I can see how they would feel that way. However, this is nothing more than alleviating accountability for the error, which I have not and will not do.

I do feel like its clear and undisputable that since his error left the Cardinals up a run in the game, it is clear that he did not cause them to lose it, but was a part of the reason they lost it and obviously the reason they didnt win it when the first opportunity arose to get the 27th out. If we take away Franklin’s accountability for allowing those two runs to score simply because they wouldn’t not have been there if Holiday had caught that ball, we are saying that its not his fault for allowing those runs…that its OK because he shouldn’t have had to face them.

The people you are referring to are not holding Holliday accountable enough and in my opinion you are not holding the rest of the players accountable enough.

[Richie Allen]

LOL.
Cards were still winning after his error. The Cards ended up losing that game. His error therefore by definition ONLY be part of the reason they didnt fly home 1-1.

Hey I dont like it any more than you do.

But there seems to be a blind spot for you and others that can't seem to see that his catching that ball ends the game. Franklin, as bad as he was the last few weeks, couldn't have possibly blown it at that point. Thus, all runs were considered unearned, despite his pitiful pitching.

Well I cant speak for "others." If someone says his error doesnt matter because we would have lost anyway, that is not my logic, even though in the big picture, I can see how they would feel that way. However, this is nothing more than alleviating accountability for the error, which I have not and will not do.

I do feel like its clear and undisputable that since his error left the Cardinals up a run in the game, it is clear that he did not cause them to lose it, but was a part of the reason they lost it and obviously the reason they didnt win it when the first opportunity arose to get the 27th out. If we take away Franklin’s accountability for allowing those two runs to score simply because they wouldn’t not have been there if Holiday had caught that ball, we are saying that its not his fault for allowing those runs…that its OK because he shouldn’t have had to face them.

The people you are referring to are not holding Holliday accountable enough and in my opinion you are not holding the rest of the players accountable enough.

Why would anyone take away Franklin's accountability? He pitched horrible. But according to the scorers, he got his three outs. The runs after the error were obviously unearned. Holliday, on the other hand, took a fairly routine play and booted it. Forcing Franklin to have to get a 4th out in the inning. So who deserves leeway, if any? The relief pitcher who, theoretically, got the 3 outs that were asked of him or the OF who did nothing that inning but make an error on the only ball hit to him? By your reasoning, Holliday's responsibility ending with the runner on second base, the only way you would ever blame him for the loss is if all of the baserunners allowed that inning were results of his errors. Three, four, five straight errors by Holliday would be the only reason to pin the loss on the left fielder.

[StL]

[You seem more interested in trying to win an argument by either twisting words or simply putting other words in my mouth.

Its interesting that you say this about me. I belong to about eight different message boards and I've never gotten this comment. My sig here is my sig everywhere. I laugh when I see people actually arguing about [expletive] on line and I would never get into that situation myself. I believe that even if I did win the argument, I'm still retarded for getting in one with you. I will never get into an argument online. I will definitely engage in intellectual debate and try to prove my points with facts, but I'll never actually "argue" with anyone and definitely not care if I "win." In 14 years of posting on sports message boards I have yet to see one person say, "Ok, you're right. I was stupid for thinking what I thought. I see it your way now." I never expect to read that, so, no, I am not trying to win an argument.

I never said Holliday was the reason we lost game 2. I said his error cost us the win.

I guess I dont see the distinguishable difference between saying he's the reason we lost the game and his error cost us the win. I mean, seriously, how is the meaning of the these two statements different because although it might seem like Im being a smart ass, I'd honestly really like to know. If your statement of "his error cost us the win doesnt mean the same as "his error is the reason we lost the game" then what does it mean??? I can only imagine one other way you could mean that and if you DO mean this other way then we would be saying the same thing!

I. WTF does it matter if he's the reason we didn't win or not the reason we lost. The bottom line is he [expletive] up and it cost us game two of the NLDS. Quit making excuses for him.

[/quote][/quote]

I still dont get the difference here. The second to last thing you say is that his [expletive] up cost us game two but above you say you never said he's the reason we lost game 2. I really need to understand the difference. But as for making excuses for him, I am not making excuses for his [expletive] up. You and I just disagree on it being the reason we lost the game. Or...we disagree on it costing us the game.

[Richie Allen]

I still dont get the difference here. The second to last thing you say is that his [expletive] up cost us game two but above you say you never said he's the reason we lost game 2. I really need to understand the difference. But as for making excuses for him, I am not making excuses for his [expletive] up. You and I just disagree on it being the reason we lost the game. Or...we disagree on it costing us the game.

On the previous page you contended that Holliday was absolutely not the reason we lost game 2. Since it's 100% true that his making the catch in left would have ended game two with us leading, I assumed you felt there was a distinct difference between his "costing us the win" and "the reason we lost." I see a difference, although I find it somewhat unnecessary to distinguish between the two.
Eventually, someone has to simply answer this question: if Holliday makes the catch do you think we would have won game 2?

[StL]

LOL.
Cards were still winning after his error. The Cards ended up losing that game. His error therefore by definition ONLY be part of the reason they didnt fly home 1-1.

Hey I dont like it any more than you do.

But there seems to be a blind spot for you and others that can't seem to see that his catching that ball ends the game. Franklin, as bad as he was the last few weeks, couldn't have possibly blown it at that point. Thus, all runs were considered unearned, despite his pitiful pitching.

Well I cant speak for "others." If someone says his error doesnt matter because we would have lost anyway, that is not my logic, even though in the big picture, I can see how they would feel that way. However, this is nothing more than alleviating accountability for the error, which I have not and will not do.

I do feel like its clear and undisputable that since his error left the Cardinals up a run in the game, it is clear that he did not cause them to lose it, but was a part of the reason they lost it and obviously the reason they didnt win it when the first opportunity arose to get the 27th out. If we take away Franklin’s accountability for allowing those two runs to score simply because they wouldn’t not have been there if Holiday had caught that ball, we are saying that its not his fault for allowing those runs…that its OK because he shouldn’t have had to face them.

The people you are referring to are not holding Holliday accountable enough and in my opinion you are not holding the rest of the players accountable enough.

Why would anyone take away Franklin's accountability? He pitched horrible. But according to the scorers, he got his three outs. The runs after the error were obviously unearned. Holliday, on the other hand, took a fairly routine play and booted it. Forcing Franklin to have to get a 4th out in the inning. So who deserves leeway, if any? The relief pitcher who, theoretically, got the 3 outs that were asked of him or the OF who did nothing that inning but make an error on the only ball hit to him? By your reasoning, Holliday's responsibility ending with the runner on second base, the only way you would ever blame him for the loss is if all of the baserunners allowed that inning were results of his errors. Three, four, five straight errors by Holliday would be the only reason to pin the loss on the left fielder.

I understand that's what his score sheet says man but damn...is that all that matters? He got three outs in that inning, so he did his job? Its as simple as that??

I am sure (my turn for an assumption) that if you ask Franklin, he'd say he didnt do his job. Holliday would say the same thing of course.

And in no way do I give any leeway to either of them. Holliday doesnt get a pass from me for that error just like Franklin doesnt get a pass from me simply because those runs werent "earned."