GatewayRedbirds.com

Vidor wrote:I know this thread is for a specific purpose, but if there's ever a loss you can't blame on the manager, it's a loss when you were leading 9-3 in the bottom of the 9th.

This thread isn't about blaming the manager, but rather pointing out the quirky things La Russa does and venting about them.

For instance, the treatment of Jon Jay is odd. He performs pretty well in his first big-league shot, gets sent down to get "consistent at-bats" while the team plays a poor-fielding, soft-hitting, 36-year-old DFA'ed outfielder with alarming regularity. Then once recalled, Jay is immediately double-switched for said outfielder, who runs around right field like he had four beers immediately before entering the game.

jagtrader wrote:

Vidor wrote:I know this thread is for a specific purpose, but if there's ever a loss you can't blame on the manager, it's a loss when you were leading 9-3 in the bottom of the 9th.

This thread isn't about blaming the manager, but rather pointing out the quirky things La Russa does and venting about them.

Exactly.

And giving up 9 in the 9th? That's on the players.

jim wrote:

jagtrader wrote:

Vidor wrote:I know this thread is for a specific purpose, but if there's ever a loss you can't blame on the manager, it's a loss when you were leading 9-3 in the bottom of the 9th.

This thread isn't about blaming the manager, but rather pointing out the quirky things La Russa does and venting about them.

Exactly.

And giving up 9 in the 9th? That's on the players.

Yeah, obviously the players didn't do their jobs.

But, I don't think a team can give up 9 runs in one inning (while only getting two outs) ever without some of it falling on the manager. Winn in RF for starters. No one in the BP to spell Franklin in a 6 run game is pretty bad as well.

When players under TLR do well, we always credit him for putting them in spots they are likely to succeed. This is one case where he changed so much while up 6 runs, he had no one left to help players in horrible spots. Winn/Franklin in particular. If that was a 2 run game, I can't help but wonder if things would have been handled differently.

[expletive] happens.
Larussa happens.

When players under TLR do well, we always credit him for putting them in spots they are likely to succeed. This is one case where he changed so much while up 6 runs, he had no one left to help players in horrible spots.

You know what? That's a really fair point. Clearly execution is the culprit when you blow a 9-3 lead in the 9th inning with your closer on the mound; BUT equally clearly, when hits are sneaking through and extra bases are being taken because you have players in positions where they are defensive liabilities, well, instead of crediting TLR with always putting players in situations where they succeed, it seems reasonable to assign him some of the fault for using or leaving players in situations for which they are ill-suited ... likewise, why did Hawksworth only go 5, with a 7-run lead? Why did McClellan only go one? Why yank Miller after two batters with a 6-run lead and waste Motte? 9th inning could have played out quite differently if ANY of those things were different, so Motte was still in the pen while Franklin was lobbing them in there.

Clearly last night was not a night to submit as a textbook example of how TLR handles a pitching staff, and places supporting players in situations that maximizes their strengths and their likelihood of succeeding.

This is why Tony needs 13 pitchers on the roster.

wart57 wrote:This is why Tony needs 13 pitchers on the roster.

It might be why Tony needs Salas on the roster. He's been solid.

skmsw wrote:why did Hawksworth only go 5, with a 7-run lead?

Did you watch the game?

skmsw wrote:

When players under TLR do well, we always credit him for putting them in spots they are likely to succeed. This is one case where he changed so much while up 6 runs, he had no one left to help players in horrible spots.

You know what? That's a really fair point. Clearly execution is the culprit when you blow a 9-3 lead in the 9th inning with your closer on the mound; BUT equally clearly, when hits are sneaking through and extra bases are being taken because you have players in positions where they are defensive liabilities, well, instead of crediting TLR with always putting players in situations where they succeed, it seems reasonable to assign him some of the fault for using or leaving players in situations for which they are ill-suited ... likewise, why did Hawksworth only go 5, with a 7-run lead? Why did McClellan only go one? Why yank Miller after two batters with a 6-run lead and waste Motte? 9th inning could have played out quite differently if ANY of those things were different, so Motte was still in the pen while Franklin was lobbing them in there.

Clearly last night was not a night to submit as a textbook example of how TLR handles a pitching staff, and places supporting players in situations that maximizes their strengths and their likelihood of succeeding.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I would assume that Larussa figured this game was "in the bag", and wanted to take the opportunity to get everyone in the bullpen some work. Wainwright pitched a complete game on Sunday, and the off day Monday. McClellan, Franklin and Miller didn't pitch Saturday. So Franklin had 3 days off, Miller and McClellan had 5 days off, I think. So I can definitely understand why Larussa wanted to get a few tosses for everyone in the bullpen............... and last night's game SHOULD HAVE BEEN the perfect opportunity.

Putting Winn in for Jay......... I can't explain.

I made an analogy recently that I thought expressed my frustrations with LaRussa. Forecast is sunny with no chance of rain, yet Tony packs an umbrella with him. Strange, over cautious, weird ... but you shrug your shoulders and figure that he must know something about the possibility of rain that nobody else in the world knows, and he's prepared. Sure enough, as Tony is out, the skies open up. And as the skies open up, Tony gets drenched because he doesn't take his umbrella out. An hour later, Tony is drenched head to toe and the umbrella is still in his hand and packed away, ready for who knows what.

.
.

Yesterday, Molina is up with a guy on 3rd and 1 out and we are down 3 in the 7th I think. Not usually the time one would want to trade an out for a run, but Tony thinks it's a good idea and tries a squeeze. Now that's weird, sort of like bringing an umbrella with you on a perfectly sunny day with no rain in the forecast. You try to find reason with it, and come up with this. Molina is so bad right now, so utterly hopeless at the plate, that you simply have to get whatever you can out of him and trading a run for an out is better than the alternative. Obviously he's not looking to make a big play with Molina running, forcing the defense into a mistake, he's really playing to plate that one run. Ok, weird and probably wrong, but ok.

Fast forward two innings, and that totally hapless hitter comes up with 2 outs in the 9th representing the tying run. Given the previous actions (the squeeze, or in our analogy the umbrella) you have to figure that it's time to make a move consistent with that.

It's raining Tony, take the umbrella out and use it. And while you are at it, PH for Molina. That would be consistent with your previous actions.

But no, we leave Molina in and we don't take the umbrella out.

Time and time again I see this. I'm not saying Stavy makes the difference, most likely he doesn't, but the managers job is to tilt that win probability your way whenever he can no matter how slight, and there was an opportunity yesterday. And given his previous actions, it sure seemed the logical continuation of his thought process.

LaRussa's moves have been labeled "genius" by many, but I say that there is a very thin line between genius and idiot.