Scott Rolen for Troy Glaus (Update: Finalized!)

[Socnorb11]

The $1.4 mil one year Miles deal doesn't really constitute "building the team." (to use those quotes I know you're so fond of)

I think there's almost $60 million worth of decisions that he's already influenced (to put it mildly). Good or bad.

You "think"??

I'm not even sure where to go with that. "Think" and "influence" and "almost" are pretty ambiguous terms.

[skmsw]

In other words, he's always done things to make his team worse.

OK, I'll say it. This is completely off topic, and possibly worth its own thread, but I'll say it.

He has NOT "always done things to make his team worse." It's just that what he does used to be ahead of the curve, and now, it's behind it.

He is still doing the same things he has always done. It's just that, as often is the case among those innovators whom their inustry has finally caught up to and passed by, things he does that USED to make him smarter than everyone else and give him an edge, when the competititon was behaving and making decisions in a certain way, are no longer giving him that edge as the competition learns new ways of thinking and behaving but he does not change.

We've learned things since he first came up with his approach to winning games, and some of his ways, we now know, do not work. When everyone else knew even less, he had an edge; as research evolves and the way the game is understood advances, but he keeps doing things the same way as always, what had put him a few steps ahead, what was progressive, now has him a few steps behind, is now outmoded.

There. I said it.

[Socnorb11]

In other words, he's always done things to make his team worse.

OK, I'll say it. This is completely off topic, and possibly worth its own thread, but I'll say it.

He has NOT "always done things to make his team worse." It's just that what he does used to be ahead of the curve, and now, it's behind it.

He is still doing the same things he has always done. It's just that, as often is the case among those innovators whom their inustry has finally caught up to and passed by, things he does that USED to make him smarter than everyone else and give him an edge, when the competititon was behaving and making decisions in a certain way, are no longer giving him that edge as the competition learns new ways of thinking and behaving but he does not change.

We've learned things since he first came up with his approach to winning games, and some of his ways, we now know, do not work. When everyone else knew even less, he had an edge; as research evolves and the way the game is understood advances, but he keeps doing things the same way as always, what had put him a few steps ahead, what was progressive, now has him a few steps behind, is now outmoded.

There. I said it.

He won a World Championship a little over a year ago. Things must have evolved and passed him by REALLY quickly.

[haltz]

Again, it's kind of tough to argue with the track record since 2000. I think perhaps Tony was probably given some leniency in comparison to other managers.

I'm not arguing with the track record. I'm talking about now.

Jocketty picking team's pockets for HOF production, over and over again, Albert being drafted in the 13th round, Carpenter turning into an ace. Drew, Ankiel, Kile, Renteria ... I'm not trying to marginalize him, because I think he's a good field manager, but LaRussa didn't do that stuff. A good manager only has so much impact, and those teams he had steamrolled the NLC several times.

[haltz]

The $1.4 mil one year Miles deal doesn't really constitute "building the team." (to use those quotes I know you're so fond of)

I think there's almost $60 million worth of decisions that he's already influenced (to put it mildly). Good or bad.

You "think"??

I'm not even sure where to go with that. "Think" and "influence" and "almost" are pretty ambiguous terms.

Don't be annoying. You know what I mean.

[skmsw]

In other words, he's always done things to make his team worse.

OK, I'll say it. This is completely off topic, and possibly worth its own thread, but I'll say it.

He has NOT "always done things to make his team worse." It's just that what he does used to be ahead of the curve, and now, it's behind it.

He is still doing the same things he has always done. It's just that, as often is the case among those innovators whom their inustry has finally caught up to and passed by, things he does that USED to make him smarter than everyone else and give him an edge, when the competititon was behaving and making decisions in a certain way, are no longer giving him that edge as the competition learns new ways of thinking and behaving but he does not change.

We've learned things since he first came up with his approach to winning games, and some of his ways, we now know, do not work. When everyone else knew even less, he had an edge; as research evolves and the way the game is understood advances, but he keeps doing things the same way as always, what had put him a few steps ahead, what was progressive, now has him a few steps behind, is now outmoded.

There. I said it.

He won a World Championship a little over a year ago. Things must have evolved and passed him by REALLY quickly.

Whether your argument is completely spurious or not depends on how much you think the manager influences the outcome. I'm not saying there is no effect, but I am saying that the effect is not 1:1, which is the only condition in which your argument above refutes mine.

[Socnorb11]

The $1.4 mil one year Miles deal doesn't really constitute "building the team." (to use those quotes I know you're so fond of)

I think there's almost $60 million worth of decisions that he's already influenced (to put it mildly). Good or bad.

You "think"??

I'm not even sure where to go with that. "Think" and "influence" and "almost" are pretty ambiguous terms.

Don't be annoying. You know what I mean.

Honestly, I don't have a clue how he "influenced" $60 mil worth of of decisions, any more than any other manager influences decisions.

[BW23]

I think way, way, way too much is being put on Tony for the current roster. As I said earlier in the thread, the direction of the team when Jocketty was fired was said to be going towards more of a younger team with an emphasis on player development.

None of that has changed.

For 2008, there wasn't going to be a quick change to this that suddenly brought in a ton of young players that would get to play and play well. There isn't that in the farm system. But absolutely nothing has changed in this focus, and, in fact, it seems like that's the way it's headed to me...still.

Yes, Mile and Izturis. Suck. We all know that. But those are just stopgaps for one year while they plaly decent but not very good ball while waiting on 2009. There are lots of players on the current roster that could fetch a handsome return if the team is indeed out of it by July. Lots.

I'll wait until then to see what Mo does before making a quick and unnecessary judgment on his performance.

[haltz]

I'm pretty sure you haven't been in a coma this offseason, because you respond to me this same way every time I make this same point. You do know what I mean.

I said to put it mildly and obviously I think he has more influence than a manager should have. Read my last posts in this thread.

[Socnorb11]

In other words, he's always done things to make his team worse.

OK, I'll say it. This is completely off topic, and possibly worth its own thread, but I'll say it.

He has NOT "always done things to make his team worse." It's just that what he does used to be ahead of the curve, and now, it's behind it.

He is still doing the same things he has always done. It's just that, as often is the case among those innovators whom their inustry has finally caught up to and passed by, things he does that USED to make him smarter than everyone else and give him an edge, when the competititon was behaving and making decisions in a certain way, are no longer giving him that edge as the competition learns new ways of thinking and behaving but he does not change.

We've learned things since he first came up with his approach to winning games, and some of his ways, we now know, do not work. When everyone else knew even less, he had an edge; as research evolves and the way the game is understood advances, but he keeps doing things the same way as always, what had put him a few steps ahead, what was progressive, now has him a few steps behind, is now outmoded.

There. I said it.

He won a World Championship a little over a year ago. Things must have evolved and passed him by REALLY quickly.

Whether your argument is completely spurious or not depends on how much you think the manager influences the outcome. I'm not saying there is no effect, but I am saying that the effect is not 1:1, which is the only condition in which your argument above refutes mine.

I'd say the effect is pretty limited, and people who think the team is "doomed" with him as manager are afflicted with Chicken Little Syndrome.