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pop_haines wrote:Yadi is a fine receiver and I maintain that he had his offensive
breakthrough in the fiery cauldron that is the post-season.

His breakthrough mysteriously didn't last into Puerto Rican winter ball where he hit .214. The $64,000 question for Molina is whether he can maintain his defensive value. He can't hit a lick.

greenback44 wrote:

skmsw wrote:Generally speaking, the best catchers in baseball at controlling the running game are worth 5 to 10 runs a year (Yadi was about 8 above average).

Clay Davenport disagrees.

That's OK by me. In my opinion, BP's defensive metrics are the least useful out there (and taint the metrics they use that attempt to incorporate defense), and Davenport Translations add little to the discussion. But aside from my own opinion, I have no beef with anyone who wants to pick him over me.

Interestingly enough, though, even if one DOES accept Davenport Translations (which I do not), Yadi still turns up as a break-even player looking at offense and defense (+3 in 2005; -8 in 2006). His defense makes him about average -- not elite.

Which, as I've said all along, break-even player is fine with me as long as he stays at a break-even salary.

skmsw wrote:

Not saying theres a bias is ridiculous

We Cards fans tend to over-rate Yadi's defense.

You keep saying that, but Yadi's at or near the top of all the defensive metrics I've seen.

Unless you mean over-rate in terms of what that impact is. I don't so much over-rate it as enjoy it a hell of a lot.

-- the bottom line now is that there's no reasonable alternatives this year and Yadi is under contract. I'd say this season will tell us more and it should play out before the club makes a decision on him.

skmsw wrote:The Steverino moral of the story is, do not pay much extra for catcher defense. It is over-valued, and plays a smaller role in run prevention than most think. A good hitter who can play catcher (even marginally to below average defense) is more valuable than an excellent defensive catcher who doesn't hit.

I'll be one of the few to agree. Yes Yadi has a good arm, but I'm not going to sit here and defend him hitting .230 if he starts makin 2 or 3 mil a year for his arm. The team is starved for offensive help as it is, and shelling out money for a catcher cause he has a good arm isn't a great idea, IMO. Why not bring up Anderson or sign another Yadi-esque catcher for less, and then spend the extra money on pitching? Sure Yadi can throw-out 2197034 runners, but if we have better pitchers, we don't need him to throw as many out.

That said, I still hold out hope he found a stroke last fall and he's going to pick it up to 80-85 OPS+ (two seasons above 70, one at 80 so this is reasonable).

Steve, if he hits at an 85 OPS is worth keeping around or are we still better, in your opinion, with an Anderson type player coming up and filling in?

Has it gotten to the point where Cardinals fans have to defend Molina's defensive value on a Cardinals board? I mean, really. You can't see it from watching Cardinals games?

What's next? Defending the fact the home caps are red?

jagtrader wrote:Has it gotten to the point where Cardinals fans have to defend Molina's defensive value on a Cardinals board? I mean, really. You can't see it from watching Cardinals games?

What's next? Defending the fact the uniforms are red?

I think we all agree Molina's defense has value. The question is, does his D offset his horrible bat and will he be worth keeping around once he starts getting more expensive? Personally I love watching Yadi's arm and fire but I don't think he's adding many wins to the Card's bottom line.

pop_haines wrote:

Michael wrote:

jagtrader wrote:Has it gotten to the point where Cardinals fans have to defend Molina's defensive value on a Cardinals board? I mean, really. You can't see it from watching Cardinals games?

What's next? Defending the fact the uniforms are red?

I think we all agree Molina's defense has value. The question is, does his D offset his horrible bat and will be be worth keeping around once he starts getting more expensive? Personally, I love watching Yadi's arm and fire but I fear he's not adding many wins to the Card's bottom line.

But that's not the impression that I'm getting here. I'm reading that his defense
is not worth his crappy offense. I disagree.

Catcher is *the* most difficult position.

I'll take a smart defender over an offensive
powerhouse anyday. Obviously, there are
folks who disagree.

I'm reading that to, and I happen to agree with it. That said, I respect your opinion.

pop_haines wrote:I'll take a smart defender over an offensive
powerhouse anyday. Obviously, there are
folks who disagree.

I think the real debate is - do one of the aspects weigh more than the other. If the best hitting catcher is an average defender (Mauer - McCann?) is he worth more than or the same as an Average Hitting catcher whose the best defensively. Then you gotta start using sliders and realize Molina doesn't even hit average.

I'll take average defense for a good hitter, not just a power house.

Michael wrote:

jagtrader wrote:Has it gotten to the point where Cardinals fans have to defend Molina's defensive value on a Cardinals board? I mean, really. You can't see it from watching Cardinals games?

What's next? Defending the fact the uniforms are red?

I think we all agree Molina's defense has value. The question is, does his D offset his horrible bat and will he be worth keeping around once he starts getting more expensive? Personally I love watching Yadi's arm and fire but I don't think he's adding many wins to the Card's bottom line.

But that's not the sole question in these posts. Some are actually arguing whether Molina is the best defensive catcher in the National League.

But, anyway, I'll leave the thread for good.

jagtrader wrote:

Michael wrote:

jagtrader wrote:Has it gotten to the point where Cardinals fans have to defend Molina's defensive value on a Cardinals board? I mean, really. You can't see it from watching Cardinals games?

What's next? Defending the fact the uniforms are red?

I think we all agree Molina's defense has value. The question is, does his D offset his horrible bat and will he be worth keeping around once he starts getting more expensive? Personally I love watching Yadi's arm and fire but I don't think he's adding many wins to the Card's bottom line.

But that's not the sole question in these posts. Some are actually arguing whether Molina is the best defensive catcher in the National League.

But, anyway, I'll leave the thread for good.

I read good points on sides in regards to his defensive value. Personally I'm not real satisfied with catcher defensive metrics but *I* have trouble believing his D is good enough to offset his bat.

Hah, Yadi has passed the Mulder trade in explosiveness.