General Soccer Thread

[thrill]

So what are the theories on why US players aren't as skillful? Is it because they all grow up playing on teams, in leagues thus don't have the unconstrained freedom to discover slick moves on the streets playing with their friends?

Maybe that's why US keepers ARE competitive. The same doesn't apply.

I place more blame on our youth system than the lack of "street" play. In Europe and South America, players are signed to professional development deals as teenagers (and earlier) where they are shaped to fit into the team's system. Clubs that have historically valued continuity in style are the most successful (Ajax, Bayern Munich, AC Milan, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, the list goes on). In the US, kids don't get as many hours playing to develop their genius (Malcolm Gladwell nods approvingly) because our professional MLS club development system doesn't get to treat their kids as pros until much later in their developmental age and the youth club teams are big business with big time coaches making 6 figures a year so emphasis is placed on results and not skill development.

It's a systemic issue and it's what Klinsmann and Claudio Reyna are working to try to change right now. More national training systems, uniform coaching policies and styles and MLS is doing a much better job funding their developmental academies as the league becomes increasingly more profitable and they can devote more resources to it.

[Fat Strat]

I hate ESPN. This is the second or third time that they moved the USMNT match to another channel because their previous program ran over or whatever. Today I set my DVR to record the match and got 45 minutes of some NASCAR race. Then, instead of cutting back over, they just went to SportsCenter and left the match on ESPN2. So, I recorded an hour of NASCAR and 2 hours of SportsCenter breaking news, and got to watch the last 5 minutes of the match on ESPN3 live.

You'll here me complaining even more loudly if they wait until tomorrow to put the match up for ESPN3 replay.

We aren't known as a possession team. What you're seeing when you see lots of possession with not much payoff is a team that isn't great at possession trying to become better at it.

That looks about right to me. The difference in style is obvious and I'm actually pretty surprised and pleased to see that they've been able to make as much progress as they have. But, they're definitely having trouble finishing and making adjustments during the match. They actually looked pretty good at times in getting chances, but lack that brilliance or creativity or instincts to make the final move and get a clean shot. Part of it is the new system. Another part is that we're missing pieces. Another part is that the players themselves are simply not good enough.

They should have made this change a year ago. I like what they're doing and I'm hopeful that they can fit their current pieces -- Dempsey, Donovan, Bradley -- into the new system without having to start from scratch with the young players.

[thrill]

I hate ESPN. This is the second or third time that they moved the USMNT match to another channel because their previous program ran over or whatever. Today I set my DVR to record the match and got 45 minutes of some NASCAR race. Then, instead of cutting back over, they just went to SportsCenter and left the match on ESPN2. So, I recorded an hour of NASCAR and 2 hours of SportsCenter breaking news, and got to watch the last 5 minutes of the match on ESPN3 live.

You'll here me complaining even more loudly if they wait until tomorrow to put the match up for ESPN3 replay.

We aren't known as a possession team. What you're seeing when you see lots of possession with not much payoff is a team that isn't great at possession trying to become better at it.

That looks about right to me. The difference in style is obvious and I'm actually pretty surprised and pleased to see that they've been able to make as much progress as they have. But, they're definitely having trouble finishing and making adjustments during the match. They actually looked pretty good at times in getting chances, but lack that brilliance or creativity or instincts to make the final move and get a clean shot. Part of it is the new system. Another part is that we're missing pieces. Another part is that the players themselves are simply not good enough.

They should have made this change a year ago. I like what they're doing and I'm hopeful that they can fit their current pieces -- Dempsey, Donovan, Bradley -- into the new system without having to start from scratch with the young players.

Yeah, if you replace Rogers and Edu/Beckerman with Bradley and Holden, it looks much better.

------------------------------------Howard---------------------------------------
-Dolo/Chandler-----Goodson----------Boca------------Lichaj/Chandler--
------------------------------------Bradley----------------------------------------
---Donovan-----------------------Holden------------------------------Shea----
-------------------------------Dempsey-------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------Altidore--------------------------------------

That's still our best lineup, imo. Dempsey playing just off Altidore. Klinsmann seems dead set on playing Landon in the middle and who knows what he thinks of Stuart Holden (even though at the end of the last club season, he had the best season of anyone other than maybe Dempsey). This also leaves no room for his beloved Paco Torres, and this is where I worry. Say what you want about Bradley, he was definitely stale, but my thoughts on the player pool line up closer to his. This obsession with the Latino influence is admirable, but maybe misguided at this point.

Basically, I'm very anxious to see where Holden fits in for him.

[Fat Strat]

Holden should make a difference. I really like Holden. Bradley in that spot should be considerably better than Edu, who honestly hasn't been that bad. He got beat a couple times in that game yesterday (watched it all on ESPN3 replay... maybe that complaint is a rave now, since I had no problems watching it when I wanted), but he's essentially the second string central midfielder/back against a Belgium team with creative attackers in the middle.

I understand Klinsmann's love affair for Torres. He distributes the ball. I think yesterday you called him a homeless man's somebody, and yeah, you're 100% correct, but he is a creative distributor and ball control player in the midfield. We need more of those guys. With Holden and Torres holding down that spot, we're in fine shape.

I thought yesterday the team did a good job of holding their shape through the first 30 minutes, and then got lazy or tired or couldn't adjust to Belgium's strategy shift. After the first 30mins we couldn't hold the ball in the midfield and made pitiful, weak attempts to push the ball. I have to think that Donovan, Holden, and Bradley would have made all the difference there.

Also, it was nice to have Cherundolo back, but our defenders can't cross worth anything. Chandler and Cherundolo both had some decent runs and opportunities off the wings, but neither could put a cross where it needed to go.

We're just not very good right now...

[JackofDiamonds]

Holden should make a difference. I really like Holden. Bradley in that spot should be considerably better than Edu, who honestly hasn't been that bad. He got beat a couple times in that game yesterday (watched it all on ESPN3 replay... maybe that complaint is a rave now, since I had no problems watching it when I wanted), but he's essentially the second string central midfielder against a Belgium team with creative attackers in the middle.

I understand Klinsmann's love affair for Torres. He distributes the ball. I think yesterday you called him a homeless man's somebody, and yeah, you're 100% correct, but he is a creative distributor and ball control player in the midfield. We need more of those guys. With Holden and Torres holding down that spot, we're in fine shape.

I thought yesterday the team did a good job of holding their shape through the first 30 minutes, and then got lazy or tired or couldn't adjust to Belgium's strategy shift. We couldn't hold the ball in the midfield and made pitiful, weak attempts to push the ball. I have to think that Donovan, Holden, and Bradley would have made all the difference there.

Also, it was nice to have Cherundolo back, but our defenders can't cross worth anything. Chandler and Cherundolo both had some decent runs and opportunities off the wings, but neither could put a cross where it needed to go.

We're just not very good right now...

Ain't that the truth.

How long do you think the growing pains last?

[Fat Strat]

I have no idea. Some of it is growing pains, definitely. Some is that we haven't seen our A lineup in the Klinsmann era. Some is the same thing that we've dealt with for a long time. The players aren't that good.

Different year, same problems. Our outside backs are solid, but can't do anything special (right now it's feeding the ball up accurately). Our central midfielders can control the ball in space, but can't make the final pass to set up a good shot. Our forwards can't finish consistently and aren't skilled enough to take on defenders one on one. Our wing midfielders can't seem to be in the right place when they need to be there.


BTW, it was great to have Dempsey back. He looked very good. Obviously the best player on the US side of the ball. Maybe the best player on the field with the ball at his feet. And I'm done with Jozy. I would start Agudelo full time up there.

[thrill]

And I'm done with Jozy. I would start Agudelo full time up there.

He's clearly not fit. He gets a pass. He still has as much upside as Agudelo.


Btw, these games have sucked but it's hard for me to be too down about any of it because a) we've yet to field our full strength team and depth is not our strong suit and b) I feel my optimism about Brek Shea has been justified.

Brek Shea has the potential to be the best American club player (non-keeper) yet. He's much, much better than Dempsey at the same age and I firmly believe he'll do what Donovan couldn't (Stick with a top level team in Europe from the get go).

I always thought that if he stays healthy, Stuart Holden will be the first American outfield player to play on a Champions League team from the EPL. I think Shea could beat him to it.

[Fat Strat]

I won't disagree with any of that about Shea. I've only seen him in the USMNT games, but I've really liked the potential that's obviously there. I could criticize him for some things in the last two games, but he's just so young and inexperienced, that I'll give him a pass. They were saying last night that Shea will go in the next transfer window. Hopefully he can get some more good exposure and find his way to a good club team.

We'll see on Altidore vs. Agudelo. They're different players. When was the last time that Altidore did something significant for the USMNT? When was the last time we came out of a US game and thought Altidore performed well? I missed the entire Gold Cup, so that might be coloring my impression of him. And yeah, 6 goals in however many games for whatever club team... He hasn't been able to translate it to international play for us yet.

[thrill]

When was the last time we came out of a US game and thought Altidore performed well?

Well first off, he's 21 years old. When Chicharito was 21, he had exactly zero goals for Mexico and 7 goals in the Mexican League. Now I'm not saying Jozy will ever be Chicharito, or start a Champions League final with a team like Manchester United, I'm just saying don't write him off.

I missed the entire Gold Cup

2 games, 2 game winning goals.

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[/youtube]

[Fat Strat]

2 games, 2 game winning goals.

I really hate that Fox Soccer Channel isn't one of the standard channels. OK. I'll concede to you on all that (well, I'll concede to you on almost everything since you follow soccer and I just follow the USMNT). Wish I could have seen him play well. To me, over the last few games that I've gotten to watch (any game on ESPN since the WC) he's looked the same way he did during the WC... Uninteresting.

Just the fact that the play we are seeing from Breck Shea and Agudelo stand out when compared to Altidore is one of my strikes against him. I hope I'm wrong.