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Posted: March 5 07, 8:01 am
by skmsw
*** You might laugh, but I was thinking of Garagiola.
You know, this past Friday night my Dad and I watched for the first time the DVD of game one of the 1968 world series. First time I've seen Gibson pitch -- extremely entertaining (and extremely impressive). Anyhow, the other player who really impressed me was <cringing> Tim McCarver.

There was a discussion on this forum recently about whether catchers in "the olden days" were better at controlling the running game, the same, or worse than catchers today. Well, in the first inning McCarver made what felt like a 1.5 g2g throw (I'm surely exaggerating, but it felt that quick) to nail a would-be stealer. It was eye-popping. I turned to my dad and asked him if mccarver was viewed as one of the great defensive catchers of the time; he said no, McCarver was viewed as about average or slightly better.

He said "in fact, this guy (Detroit's Bill Freehan) was considered to be much better defensively than McCarver." During one at-bat, McLane threw consecutive pitch-outs to Julian Javier; on the second one Brock went anyway and beat a very quick but high throw fairly easily. During the game Freehan threw I think three to second that ALL showed a very quick release, but all of them sailed; one to center field, the other two playable but high and a little off the bag. Uncharacteristic, said Dad.

I also was stunned -- stunned, I say -- by McCarver's baserunning speed. He hit one in the gap and at the instant I was expecting that he "should" have been halfway between first and second to end with an easy double, the announcer said he had rounded second and was going for third. Which he made easily.

Anyhow, just an interesting aside. To your point about Garagiola, I always thought he was the opposite -- another one who people assumed MUST have been a great defensive catcher, BECAUSE he was so bad offensively. Was he considered poor defensively but actually was good?

Posted: March 5 07, 9:47 am
by cardfaninfla
skmsw wrote:
I think it is pretty tough to really know if Piazza was more importent to his team with his bat and his absolutly horrid arm and defense compared to Yadi's arm and bad bat.
I'm fine with amicably disagreeing. I can readily admit that we may never know. I'm only offering my opinion and sharing my perspective, not claiming that I'm right and you're (collectively) wrong.

But just an eyeball exam of linear weights tells us that Piazza is creating an average of over 50 runs per year of offense more than Yadi, despite hitting in very, very pitching-friendly parks for most of his career.

I can't imagine a foundation for the position that Yadi's defense is so much better than Piazza's that it's closing a 50-run per year gap to the point where it is too tough to call. What basis is there for imagining that any catcher is able to prevent 50 additional runs on defense?
I am also fine with amicably disagreeing. I wonder how many of the 50 runs created for his teams during his prime did he give back by allowing extra bases and just overall poor receiving skills? That could bridge the gap quite quickly possibly. The problem with trying to compare an offensive guy to a defensive guy is that it is very hard to figure how good and bad defense results in runs prevented, especially at the catcher position.

Posted: March 5 07, 9:57 am
by ghostrunner
cardfaninfla wrote: I'm fine with amicably disagreeing.
This sucks. I wanted a fight.

Posted: March 5 07, 9:59 am
by Popeye_Card
ghostrunner wrote:
cardfaninfla wrote: I'm fine with amicably disagreeing.
This sucks. I wanted a fight.
Yeah, me too.

What good is having Molina and Mulder on the roster if we can't fight?

--P--

Posted: March 5 07, 10:10 am
by ghostrunner
Popeye_Card wrote:
ghostrunner wrote:
cardfaninfla wrote: I'm fine with amicably disagreeing.
This sucks. I wanted a fight.
Yeah, me too.

What good is having Molina and Mulder on the roster if we can't fight?

--P--
And Eckstein.