Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

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AWvsCBsteeeerike3
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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by AWvsCBsteeeerike3 »

KyCardinalFan wrote:Here is what is on Obama/Biden's site:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/defense/

At a Glance

Invest in a 21st Century Military
Build Defense Capabilities for the 21st Century
Restore the Readiness of the National Guard and Reserves
Develop Whole of Government Initiatives to Promote Security
Restore Our Alliances
Reform Contracting
I guess this is partly why I asked the question i did earlier ("Do you think the candidates will do what they say") because and not to pick on Obama here, McCains site is full of this as well, I just don't buy it.

What exactly does "build defense capabilities for the 21st century" mean? Like I said earlier, whoever takes office is going to have to figure out a way to pay for this mess we're in. And, it is going to likely mean raising taxes and cutting spending.....or borrowing a boatload more money from China.....

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by Michael »

I think both their taxes plans are bogus, but Obama is a little more realistic. Adding these kinds of tax cuts when the coffers are this low is tough.

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KyCardinalFan
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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by KyCardinalFan »

cards2468 wrote:
KyCardinalFan wrote:Here is what is on Obama/Biden's site:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/defense/

At a Glance

Invest in a 21st Century Military
Build Defense Capabilities for the 21st Century
Restore the Readiness of the National Guard and Reserves
Develop Whole of Government Initiatives to Promote Security
Restore Our Alliances
Reform Contracting
No mention of technology or investing in defense rather than making useless treaties. Based on Obama's tax plan, it's expected he'd increase the national deficit by nearly $4 trillion by 2018. It's expected he'd somewhat cut down that number by reducing military spending. Both candidates are advocating lower taxes because they know 8 years from now the problem won't be their problem anymore.
Did you read the link or just the bullet points I posted? I was trying to avoid having to post all that text.
Invest in a 21st Century Military
Rebuild the Military for 21st Century Tasks: As we rebuild our armed forces, we must not simply recreate the military of the Cold War era. Obama and Biden believe that we must build up our special operations forces, civil affairs, information operations, and other units and capabilities that remain in chronic short supply; invest in foreign language training, cultural awareness, and human intelligence and other needed counterinsurgency and stabilization skill sets; and create a more robust capacity to train, equip, and advise foreign security forces, so that local allies are better prepared to confront mutual threats.
Expand to Meet Military Needs on the Ground: Barack Obama and Joe Biden support plans to increase the size of the Army by 65,000 soldiers and the Marines by 27,000 troops. Increasing our end strength will help units retrain and re-equip properly between deployments and decrease the strain on military families.
Leadership from the Top: Barack Obama and Joe Biden will restore the ethic of public service to the agenda of today's youth, whether it be serving their local communities in such roles as teachers or first responders, or serving in the military to keep our nation free and safe.
Lighten the Burdens on Our Brave Troops and Their Families: An Obama-Biden administration will create a Military Families Advisory Board to provide a conduit for military families' concerns to be brought to the attention of senior policymakers and the public. Obama and Biden will end the Bush administration's stop-loss policy and establish predictability in deployments so that active duty and reserves know what they can and must expect.
Build Defense Capabilities for the 21st Century
Fully Equip Our Troops for the Missions They Face: Barack Obama and Joe Biden believe we must get vitally needed equipment to our soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines before lives are lost. We cannot repeat such failures as the delays in deployment of armored vehicles, body armor and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles that save lives on the frontlines.
Review Weapons Programs: We must rebalance our capabilities to ensure that our forces have the agility and lethality to succeed in both conventional wars and in stabilization and counter-insurgency operations. Obama and Biden have committed to a review of each major defense program in light of current needs, gaps in the field, and likely future threat scenarios in the post-9/11 world.
Preserve Global Reach in the Air: We must preserve our unparalleled airpower capabilities to deter and defeat any conventional competitors, swiftly respond to crises across the globe, and support our ground forces. We need greater investment in advanced technology ranging from the revolutionary, like Unmanned Aerial Vehicles and electronic warfare capabilities, to essential systems like the C-17 cargo and KC-X air refueling aircraft, which provide the backbone of our ability to extend global power.
Maintain Power Projection at Sea: We must recapitalize our naval forces, replacing aging ships and modernizing existing platforms, while adapting them to the 21st century. Obama and Biden will add to the Maritime Pre-Positioning Force Squadrons to support operations ashore and invest in smaller, more capable ships, providing the agility to operate close to shore and the reach to rapidly deploy Marines to global crises.
National Missile Defense: An Obama-Biden administration will support missile defense, but ensure that it is developed in a way that is pragmatic and cost-effective; and, most importantly, does not divert resources from other national security priorities until we are positive the technology will protect the American public.
Ensure Freedom of Space: An Obama-Biden administration will restore American leadership on space issues, seeking a worldwide ban on weapons that interfere with military and commercial satellites. He will thoroughly assess possible threats to U.S. space assets and the best options, military and diplomatic, for countering them, establishing contingency plans to ensure that U.S. forces can maintain or duplicate access to information from space assets and accelerating programs to harden U.S. satellites against attack.
Protect the U.S in Cyberspace: An Obama-Biden administration will work in cooperation with our allies and the private sector to identify and protect against emerging cyber-threats.
There's still more, but really, that's what the link was for.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by cards2468 »

KyCardinalFan wrote:
cards2468 wrote:
KyCardinalFan wrote:Here is what is on Obama/Biden's site:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/defense/

At a Glance

Invest in a 21st Century Military
Build Defense Capabilities for the 21st Century
Restore the Readiness of the National Guard and Reserves
Develop Whole of Government Initiatives to Promote Security
Restore Our Alliances
Reform Contracting
No mention of technology or investing in defense rather than making useless treaties. Based on Obama's tax plan, it's expected he'd increase the national deficit by nearly $4 trillion by 2018. It's expected he'd somewhat cut down that number by reducing military spending. Both candidates are advocating lower taxes because they know 8 years from now the problem won't be their problem anymore.
Did you read the link or just the bullet points I posted? I was trying to avoid having to post all that text.
Invest in a 21st Century Military
Rebuild the Military for 21st Century Tasks: As we rebuild our armed forces, we must not simply recreate the military of the Cold War era. Obama and Biden believe that we must build up our special operations forces, civil affairs, information operations, and other units and capabilities that remain in chronic short supply; invest in foreign language training, cultural awareness, and human intelligence and other needed counterinsurgency and stabilization skill sets; and create a more robust capacity to train, equip, and advise foreign security forces, so that local allies are better prepared to confront mutual threats.
Expand to Meet Military Needs on the Ground: Barack Obama and Joe Biden support plans to increase the size of the Army by 65,000 soldiers and the Marines by 27,000 troops. Increasing our end strength will help units retrain and re-equip properly between deployments and decrease the strain on military families.
Leadership from the Top: Barack Obama and Joe Biden will restore the ethic of public service to the agenda of today's youth, whether it be serving their local communities in such roles as teachers or first responders, or serving in the military to keep our nation free and safe.
Lighten the Burdens on Our Brave Troops and Their Families: An Obama-Biden administration will create a Military Families Advisory Board to provide a conduit for military families' concerns to be brought to the attention of senior policymakers and the public. Obama and Biden will end the Bush administration's stop-loss policy and establish predictability in deployments so that active duty and reserves know what they can and must expect.
Build Defense Capabilities for the 21st Century
Fully Equip Our Troops for the Missions They Face: Barack Obama and Joe Biden believe we must get vitally needed equipment to our soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines before lives are lost. We cannot repeat such failures as the delays in deployment of armored vehicles, body armor and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles that save lives on the frontlines.
Review Weapons Programs: We must rebalance our capabilities to ensure that our forces have the agility and lethality to succeed in both conventional wars and in stabilization and counter-insurgency operations. Obama and Biden have committed to a review of each major defense program in light of current needs, gaps in the field, and likely future threat scenarios in the post-9/11 world.
Preserve Global Reach in the Air: We must preserve our unparalleled airpower capabilities to deter and defeat any conventional competitors, swiftly respond to crises across the globe, and support our ground forces. We need greater investment in advanced technology ranging from the revolutionary, like Unmanned Aerial Vehicles and electronic warfare capabilities, to essential systems like the C-17 cargo and KC-X air refueling aircraft, which provide the backbone of our ability to extend global power.
Maintain Power Projection at Sea: We must recapitalize our naval forces, replacing aging ships and modernizing existing platforms, while adapting them to the 21st century. Obama and Biden will add to the Maritime Pre-Positioning Force Squadrons to support operations ashore and invest in smaller, more capable ships, providing the agility to operate close to shore and the reach to rapidly deploy Marines to global crises.
National Missile Defense: An Obama-Biden administration will support missile defense, but ensure that it is developed in a way that is pragmatic and cost-effective; and, most importantly, does not divert resources from other national security priorities until we are positive the technology will protect the American public.
Ensure Freedom of Space: An Obama-Biden administration will restore American leadership on space issues, seeking a worldwide ban on weapons that interfere with military and commercial satellites. He will thoroughly assess possible threats to U.S. space assets and the best options, military and diplomatic, for countering them, establishing contingency plans to ensure that U.S. forces can maintain or duplicate access to information from space assets and accelerating programs to harden U.S. satellites against attack.
Protect the U.S in Cyberspace: An Obama-Biden administration will work in cooperation with our allies and the private sector to identify and protect against emerging cyber-threats.
There's still more, but really, that's what the link was for.
looks like a lot of rhetoric. the comment about the naval ships gets to me some. The military has been placing orders for many ships to add to their fleet the past few years, however it takes a while obviously to produce ships. This past summer I worked with Northrup-Grumman and Newport News on a few naval projects their taking on, including the DDG-1000 and the new aircraft carrier that will be complete in a couple years. The thing is these ships will be hitting the sea within the next 4 years and it appears to me he plans on just taking credit for it rather than focusing on other aspects of the military that need improvement right now.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by Arthur Dent »

cards2468 wrote:looks like a lot of rhetoric.
What would count as not mere rhetoric? Preconceived notions about what Democrats do?
Last edited by Arthur Dent on October 28 08, 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by GatewaySnayke »

cards2468 wrote:looks like a lot of rhetoric.
To borrow a line from Dr. Perry Cox, I'm not sure whether to say "duh" or "doy" or "ya think?" Lord knows I don't agree with BW on much, but he's pretty much right when he says that a lot of what we hear in the campaign will not come to pass.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by Dillagii »

Will this thread go to archives?

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by GatewaySnayke »

DiLLaGii wrote:Will this thread go to archives?
Yes, and I will be the king.

I WILL BE KING OF TWO OF THE MOST DIVISIVE THREADS IN GRB HISTORY!!

CARPEEEEE DIEM!!!

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by cards2468 »

Arthur Dent wrote:
cards2468 wrote:looks like a lot of rhetoric.
What would count as not mere rhetoric? Preconceived notions about what Democrats do?
Thank you for contributing to the military discussion.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

Post by Arthur Dent »

cards2468 wrote:
Arthur Dent wrote:
cards2468 wrote:looks like a lot of rhetoric.
What would count as not mere rhetoric? Preconceived notions about what Democrats do?
Thank you for contributing to the military discussion.
You stated that Obama would not invest in military technology but provided no evidence that this was the case. KyCardinalFan posted his platform that explicitly stated that he planed to do exactly that. This was dismissed as mere rhetoric but no counter-evidence was provided. It sounds to me like you have already made a conclusion (Democrats will not invest in the military) and will defer any need for evidence. This kind of inverted reasoning is a major problem with political dialog.

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