Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

[Freed Roger]

Hence the growing support for a flat tax/Fair Tax restructuring.

I'm skeptical about it, but bringing that up is a better argument than calling someone a socialist. At least that's a policy/philosophy discussion.

I'm skeptical too. You mess with this stuff, it has many unintended ramifications and loopholes you could drive a mack truck through. Can of worms opened. How do you define income? (you could still fill a wall with books defining what is income). is it b/f or after deductions? What deductions are allowed then? How is that any different than what we do now. Where would the rate need to be set to get reasonably close to balancing the budget? Are lower and middle classes willing to shoulder billions more of the nations tax burden for the sake of this?

the other idea I hear is a national sales tax. value added tax. That has a whole other set of concerns.

ideas need studied by experts, not by politician groups during an election (you can say the same thing for health care reform). I don't think McCain has pushed a flat tax - this talk is coming from another extremist faction of the GOP. Sadly, the only voices that seem to be heard from the right anymore.

[BW23]

It's bad no matter who does it. I'm not so partisan I can't admit that. There's no reason to discredit him because he asked a question that exposed a fundamental flaw, according to Republicans.

What "discrediting" is going on? Some news outlets did some background checking on the guy, found out that he's a registered Republican and owes some back taxes. Anyone else poking fun at him is because of his own self-promotion. The McCain campaign is the only one running ads about the guy--it's not like Obama has smeared him in any way. Am I missing something here?

And I don't agree that spreading the wealth is a fundamental flaw. The only thing that statement has done has helped the Republicans to make "socialist!" claims. When McCain himself has talked about spreading the wealth around in the past.

Fundamental flaw may not have been the right wording, but the "spread the wealth" claim went against what the Republicans want, and it helped fuel that fire.

[InvincibleCakeEater]

Uh oh. Joe the Plumber stood up John McCain at a rally in Ohio this morning. Can his campaign recover? Where was Joe? Will it be in his book?

For all the answers and more, tune in next week.

[Popeye_Card]

Uh oh. Joe the Plumber stood up John McCain at a rally in Ohio this morning. Can his campaign recover? Where was Joe? Will it be in his book?

For all the answers and more, tune in next week.

McCain got "big-timed" by Joe the Plumber. That's funny.

[letsgocards89]

Obama's prime-time ad skips over budget realities

[InvincibleCakeEater]

Here's the stand up video.

[/youtube]

[BW23]

Here's the stand up video.

[/youtube]

That's funny. You'd think someone would verify whether he's there or not.

[maddash]

I love how someone can ask a presidential candidate a question on the campaign trail and have themselves dragged through the mud by the media. The scrutiny of Joe is beyond the ridiculous level.

I think people are just annoyed by his self-promotion and obvious grabbing of his 15 minutes of fame.

I will freely admit that I don't like it that news outlets immediately investigate these instant celebrities within minutes. I'm sure he's just an average Joe. It's the Republicans who made him a huge story, when there's not all that much particularly interesting about his situation.

The scrutiny took place immediately...digging into his past, looking for ways to put him down. And it wasn't just the news outlets.

Did the Republicans make him a huge story? Yeah, I guess. But it was because of the answer that Obama gave that set them off. "Spread the wealth". That's what started it all. And now, the best way to get people to ignore that is to paint Joe in a bad light.

Disgusting.

The guy said he was interested in owning a plumbing business, and at this point he calls it a fall back career. Obviously the validity of his story is questionable, and he's been fully cooperative in his interviews. He now has a publicist and is taking advantage of the situation. If he had kept quiet and said "leave me alone" it might be different.

The point of his question is still valid, and Obama answered it. Spread the wealth is the philosophy behind the current income tax system and has been for a century. Where the brackets fall and how much they're taxed has gone up and down the whole time depending on the people in charge and the circumstances.

Hence the growing support for a flat tax/Fair Tax restructuring.

Just about every flat tax proposal out there still has a redistribution component built in. People who earn under X amount will not have to pay income tax, even under a flat tax. The flat tax isn't as flat as people think it is... it's flatter, for sure, but it's certainly not flat.

And a fair tax redistributes wealth from the bottom up, as poor people send a disproportionate amount of their income on consumer goods.

[AWvsCBsteeeerike3]

Hence the growing support for a flat tax/Fair Tax restructuring.

I'm skeptical about it, but bringing that up is a better argument than calling someone a socialist. At least that's a policy/philosophy discussion.

I'm skeptical too. You mess with this stuff, it has many unintended ramifications and loopholes you could drive a mack truck through. Can of worms opened. How do you define income? (you could still fill a wall with books defining what is income). is it b/f or after deductions? What deductions are allowed then? How is that any different than what we do now. Where would the rate need to be set to get reasonably close to balancing the budget? Are lower and middle classes willing to shoulder billions more of the nations tax burden for the sake of this?

the other idea I hear is a national sales tax. value added tax. That has a whole other set of concerns.

ideas need studied by experts, not by politician groups during an election (you can say the same thing for health care reform). I don't think McCain has pushed a flat tax - this talk is coming from another extremist faction of the GOP. Sadly, the only voices that seem to be heard from the right anymore.

I'm not a brilliant man by any means, and maybe that is why I don't see the problems, but a fairtax or consumption tax would have far fewer problems than this system, imo. And, it was devised by a conglomeration of Harvard and MIT economic professors I believe...not some politician. In a nutshell, it assumes people at the poverty line spend every single cent they earn and return that money to them (and every other american) on a monthly basis. therefore, anything you spend above the poverty line is taxed at 23%. obviously the rich spend more than the poor, so it is extremely progressive. But, there are no taxes on used goods...or certain used goods like autos, houses, etc.

The problems I see, and correct me if anyone knows more about it, are:

1. It would kill housing developers. No one would want to buy a new house with a 23% tax added to it when they can buy a used house just as easily. Same with new cars/trucks/suvs.

2. People that have saved money and put it in a RothIRA would have already paid taxes on that money and be taxed again as they spend it.

Those, imo, are the two main problems that don't have answers....

[Freed Roger]

Hence the growing support for a flat tax/Fair Tax restructuring.

I'm skeptical about it, but bringing that up is a better argument than calling someone a socialist. At least that's a policy/philosophy discussion.

I'm skeptical too. You mess with this stuff, it has many unintended ramifications and loopholes you could drive a mack truck through. Can of worms opened. How do you define income? (you could still fill a wall with books defining what is income). is it b/f or after deductions? What deductions are allowed then? How is that any different than what we do now. Where would the rate need to be set to get reasonably close to balancing the budget? Are lower and middle classes willing to shoulder billions more of the nations tax burden for the sake of this?

the other idea I hear is a national sales tax. value added tax. That has a whole other set of concerns.

ideas need studied by experts, not by politician groups during an election (you can say the same thing for health care reform). I don't think McCain has pushed a flat tax - this talk is coming from another extremist faction of the GOP. Sadly, the only voices that seem to be heard from the right anymore.

I'm not a brilliant man by any means, and maybe that is why I don't see the problems, but a fairtax or consumption tax would have far fewer problems than this system, imo. And, it was devised by a conglomeration of Harvard and MIT economic professors I believe...not some politician. In a nutshell, it assumes people at the poverty line spend every single cent they earn and return that money to them (and every other american) on a monthly basis. therefore, anything you spend above the poverty line is taxed at 23%. obviously the rich spend more than the poor, so it is extremely progressive. But, there are no taxes on used goods...or certain used goods like autos, houses, etc.

The problems I see, and correct me if anyone knows more about it, are:

1. It would kill housing developers. No one would want to buy a new house with a 23% tax added to it when they can buy a used house just as easily. Same with new cars/trucks/suvs.

2. People that have saved money and put it in a RothIRA would have already paid taxes on that money and be taxed again as they spend it.

Those, imo, are the two main problems that don't have answers....

We could have a long-boring thread on this topic alone.
you've pointed out two pitfalls -

here's some more - all that mortgage interest thats out there, no longer a deduction. Charitable contributions.

middle class, would probaby get hit the worst -plans exempt on the low end, but people in the middle will go over this exemption, and since middle class spends all their money - higher taxes.

Retirement plans - you mentioned one issue , a sales tax system could kill 401K plans. why put in a 401K anymore since it gives you no tax deferral. will companies continue to kick-in and match 401K contributions?

I think as you mentioned - we really have no idea how this monster sales tax would affect purchases of big ticket items, and ramifications of that on the economy.